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Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Wednesday, August 01, 2012

A Word to Our Benevolent Dictators

eyeThe chief complaint I hear from survivor bloggers is how they were abused by hyper-authoritarian pastors and church leadership.
Though each person may vary as to his or her experience, typically, the "authoritarianism" is reported as manifesting itself in rigid, domineering moralistic preferences that govern every aspect of a Christian's life.  The "moralism" can be as benign as a rule against wearing short pants in the church building, to the absurd notion that trick-or-treating on Halloween is satanic, to the more sobering idea that Christian families are in serious sin if their children aren't homeschooled.
These moral preferences aren't spelled out in any written document that is handed out to members. (Though I am sure there are survivor bloggers who could probably produce such a real-life document).  Rather, they are shared "convictions" experienced by members in the spiritual climate within the church by what is taught in the pulpit and advocated in the Sunday school rooms.
Take for example the pastor's idea of Christian modesty.  If he teaches that no women are ever allowed to wear pants because pants are a "man's garments," or a man's hair cannot cover his ears or touch his shirt collar because "long hair on a man is effeminate," and everyone in the church conforms to those preferences, any "non-conformity" will be met by strong glares and possible rebuke.
It's one thing for moralistic church leadership to forbid the people from listening to any rock music including CCM.  It's quite another when they tell you how much money you need to tithe every month or what Bible version you must use or you risk falling into sin.  Particularly odious, however, is when they tell you how many children you and your wife must have or what kinds of foods you should eat in order to be really, really godly.
Any person who may not share in these preferences will find it difficult to participate in the body life of that local church without feeling a burden of guilt and an unspoken hostility from other members for non-conformity.  That is not a spiritually healthy environment.  Pastors need to be especially alert to fomenting this sort of oppressive atmosphere in their churches.  In fact, I would say these pastors are held doubly-accountable before the Lord in such cases.
The Apostle Peter warns pastors in his first epistle not to "lord over" those that have been entrusted to them (1 Peter 5:3).  The idea here is that pastors have a unique role as spiritual leaders and they should be an example of humble service to the people they watch over.  Pastors are not to abuse their authority with manipulative intimidation.  Especially in areas that genuinely are preferences regarding the living out of moral issues on a daily basis.
As shepherds, these are men who have been stirred up by God's Spirit to desire that office and are divinely placed in their position to govern the spiritual lives of men's souls.  They are first teachers of God's Word, so they have a serious responsibility before God Almighty to handle faithfully the teaching of sound doctrine (James 3:1, Ephesians 4:11-16).  But moreover, their duties as shepherds means they have an equally great responsibility to serve God's people by loving them, discipling them, and training them in godliness.
Using his God given authority to forcibly insist Christians must adopt his non-biblical moral preferences has never been the role of a shepherd.
A genuine mark of the Holy Spirit's work in the body of Christ is that faithful teaching will produce faithful application of that doctrine in the lives of Christian people.  One struggle a pastor may experience is learning the discernment that distinguishes between the Holy Spirit's exclusive sanctifying work in the hearts of Christians and the authority they've been granted to disciple the members of their flock.  When a pastor blurs the distinction between what is the exclusive work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying believers with his scripturally revealed duties as a shepherd to watch after the flock, a danger exists for him to abuse his authority.
sundayA pastor who equates his personal convictions and preferences with true spiritual godliness risks lording over his flock and stepping into areas where he has no authority. 
You as a pastor may believe watching TV is a worldly distraction that wastes time, and you may be right about that conviction.  But it is inappropriate for you to insist ALL church members must embrace and implement your anti-TV convictions as a means to obtain true spirituality.  All a pastor can do it mildly exhort people with long-suffering concerning his reasons for why it's not good for Christians to watch TV.  Once he begins laying a heavy guilt trip on people, he's moved into abusing his authority.
What steps can a pastor take in order to keep himself from falling into abusing his authority and head-off any accusations of "lording over others?"  I am sure there are probably more, but I’ll offer three simple thoughts.
FIRST, I would say communicate.  Explain clearly why it is leadership requires what they do from it's members.  Discuss openly with the flock any major Church impacting decisions made on behalf of the people.  As long as you are sharing information that isn't confidential, that would include any church discipline issues.
SECOND, welcome dissent.  Be prepared to defend your position, as well as answer hostile questions and challenges graciously, fully, and with long-suffering.  A pastor may have to deal with the same nit-picky, button-holing person over and over again, but dealing with hassling complainers is part of the pastor’s job.  His immediate response to dissenters must never be "my way or the highway!"
And THIRD, and most importantly, be humble. That would especially include receiving correction from the members that may result in changing a long held preference tradition or direct a course change in the way the pastor may have handle a situation. 
I think if a pastor makes a good faith effort to work out at least these three suggestions in his ministry, no one can truly accuse him of lording over people and abusing his authority.
Now. A ending word to church members who like to cry “spiritual abuse” and  “hyper-authoritarianism.”
Similarly, members of the flock must heed the exhortation following Peter's words to shepherds: Likewise you younger submit to your elders.  The "younger" here, I believe, has the idea of younger in experience, which means "young in the faith."  The contrast is between elders/shepherds and the younger, or the remainder of those in church.  In other words, the flock over which the shepherds watch.
In the same way shepherds should serve the flock, members of the flock need to serve the elders.  They serve by submitting to them and not holding them in suspicion about everything they do.  That entails trusting their authority even at times when you, the member, don't like them exercising their authority in particular areas. 
A person prone to kick against authorities he believes are "meddling" with his life and sticking their nose in "my business," needs to seriously re-evaluate what it is he wants out of church and why it is he's there.  If you think it's none of the pastor's business that you let your teenage son date an unbeliever or that he's concerned you and your family only attend church once or twice a month, it may be helpful to save him the grief and move on to a place where no one will interfere with your life. 

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35 Comments:

Blogger Tom said...

If I could add one more item for pastors: distinguish between the pulpit and the counseling sessions. One thing I appreciate about our pastor is that when he's in the pulpit, you won't hear too much about what his personal preferences and convictions are. He just sticks to the exposition. However, when you get to know him, you do find out he has this or that personal opinion, and he may counsel a certain way that is more on the "personal conviction" side. But that's just it: that counsel is reserved for one-on-one interactions.

What typically happens is that what is preached from the pulpit becomes the pulse of the church, what the church is "about." If the only thing in the pulpit is what's in the Bible then, my friend, you will have a Bible-believing congregation. Obviously, that's a generalization, but it's an important safeguard.

Interestingly, I know of a church where the pastor preaches (series!) on how women should not be wearing pants. Confessionally, this church would fall in the Reformed camp. Practically, however, they are known as the "church with the pants thing going on." Women got the evil eye and felt the guilt trip if they dared to wear pants (or express an interest in doing so). I think this church is now going through a split -- but I (thankfully) not aware of any survivor blog type stuff.

Tom

5:52 AM, August 01, 2012  
Blogger Big Bren said...

Excellent post, I heartily agree.

6:25 AM, August 01, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You write about pastors...
“The Apostle Peter warns pastors in his first epistle not to "lord over" those that have been entrusted to them (1 Peter 5:3).”

And then call pastors “Spiritual Leaders.”
“ The idea here is that pastors have a unique role as **spiritual leaders** and they should be an example of humble service to the people they watch over.”

Seems 1 Pet 5:3 is referring to elders - but you used pastors.
Do you have a reason for changing this scripture verse?

And - In 1 Pet 5:3, These elders are NOT to be **lords over God’s heritage.**
But - You write - “not to "lord over" those that have been entrusted to them.”
Once again - Do you have a reason for changing this scripture verse?

Also - Where do you find pastors as “Spiritual Leaders” in the Bible?

As man - Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
and took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.

Isn’t Jesus our “Spiritual Leader?” Doesn’t he ask us to “Follow Him?”

And Jesus calls Himself our “ONE” leader.

Haven’t you ever wondered why Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders?”
For you have “ONE” leader - the Christ?

And NONE did... None of His Disciples called themselves “Leader.
In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” ;-)

Mat 23:10-12 NASB - New American Standard Bible
Do not be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

8:00 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos,
You forget 1 Tim. 3:1-10. Elders are leading the church. They oversee the well-being of the church, which means they have to exercise leadership in it.

Now. I would agree with you that they "lead" by serving the church by their example. Paul gives specific qualifications that distinquishes what that looks like within an elder, one later attitude being, as Peter writes, "not lording over others." However, in spite of that, they are leaders none the less. You may not like the terminology, but it is accurate.

8:44 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

Thank you for your opinion.

Even though you didn’t answer...
Why Jesus told His Disciples NOT to be called Leader?

If someone calls them self “Leader?”
Are they a “Disciple? Of Jesus Christ?

And - How come - NONE of His Disciples...
called them self, or another Disciple - “Leader?”

10:20 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

And - I’m familiar with 1 Tim 3:1-10 and Titus 1:5-8...
Qualifications for Elder/Overseers. - That most today “Ignore” or “Twist”
In order to obtain a position - of so-called “leadership” in “Todays Religious System.”

What should an “Elder/Overseer” do... A congregation do...
If this Elder/Overseer does NOT meet these tough qualifications?

10:21 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos,
If you go back to this post,
http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2012/06/responding-to-wolf-watchers.html

I address what I think Christians should do with a man who doesn't meet those qualifications.

I'd encourage you to get Alexander Strauch's book, "Biblical Eldership" if you haven't already which is a solid study on the subject of spiritual leadership in the church. He goes into a good Bible study on the subject that is extremely helpful.

10:51 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

Sorry - Skimed over your post you recommended - I still don’t know...

What an “Elder/Overseer” should do - If they do NOT quallify?

What would “You” do - If you knew - an “Elder/Overseer” does NOT qualify?

--------------

It’s been my experience that most today “Ignore” and “Twist” the qualifications.

Why would someone become an elder/overseer - If they do NOT qualify?

If they are NOT Blameless?

1 - A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**... 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 - For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**... Titus 1:7 KJV

*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s - necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: ...You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
Seems to be a small word - but very important. Yes?

1 - **Blameless**... How important is this word?
Strongs #423 - anepileptos - inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.
Thayer’s - that cannot be reprehended, (cannot be, rebukable,
reprovable, cannot find fault) not open to censure, irreproachable.

Dictionary - Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.
Synonyms - faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.

1 Tim 3:2 ASV - The bishop therefore must be without reproach...
1 Tim 3:2 NIV - Now the overseer must be above reproach...
1 Tim 3:2 NLT - For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.

How many “elder/overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”

And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey! ;-)

Aren’t ALL the requirements important?
Which one’s can we “Ignore and Twist?”

11:21 AM, August 04, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

Here are two more qualifications from Titus for “Elder/Overseer” that most who want to be an “Elder/Overseer” today *Ignore* or “Twist” in order to obtain - for them - a “Title/Position” of importance.

A “Title/Position” with...
Power- Profit - Prestige - Honor - Glory - Recognition - Reputation.

ALL those things Jesus spoke against.
ALL those things that become “Idols of the Heart.” Ezek 14:1-11.
ALL those things highly esteemed among men - BUT...
Is an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

2 - Just
Strongs #1342 - dikaios {dik'-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers - 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life

3 - Holy
Strongs #3741 - hosios {hos'-ee-os}
Thayers - 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

Now that’s three tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers.”
1 - Must Be Blameless. 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. -- Yes?

Makes an interesting study - checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers” - Then checking out those who say they are “Elder/Overseers” compared to the qualifications. :-)

And if the “Elder/Overseers” do NOT meet the qualifications...
Will they remove themselves? Give up their “Titles” and “Power.”
And be a good example to the flock?

What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular

7:13 AM, August 05, 2012  
Blogger Rennaisance Guy said...

Hi Fred,

I really like your article and it really causes one to pause and remember what is involved with a decision to become a deacon or elder for a church body.

I am sure that there are many a deacon or elder that would like a higher standard for members. 1 Peter 5:6 seems applicable for those who are not yet deacons or elders.

8:14 PM, August 06, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

I’ve noticed - Most “Elder/Overseers” - Who do NOT qualify...
Talk a lot about Heb 13:17 - And want you to “Pay - Pray - and - Obey”
Without question - But - Do NOT spend a lot of time with these requirements...

1 - 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
Neither as being “lords over God’s heritage,” but being ensamples to the flock.

2 & 3 - Php 2:3 KJV
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory;
but in “lowliness of mind” let each “esteem other better than themselves.”

4 - Eph 5:21 KJV
“Submitting yourselves one to another” in the fear of God.

5 - Rom 12:10 KJV
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
in honour “preferring one another.”

You’ll often hear the “Elder/Overseers” - Who do NOT qualify -" teach...
“Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.”

6 - 1Pet 5:5 KJV
But leave off the rest...
Yea, **all of you** be subject **one to another,** (subject = same greek word as submit)
and “be clothed with humility:” for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Then Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to exercise authority...

7 - Mark 10:42-45 KJV
...they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles
“exercise lordship” over them;
and their great ones “exercise authority” upon them.
But so shall it NOT be among you:...

Yep - If you want to see if an “Elder/Overseer” qualifies - Check them out with...
1 - Are they living examples of - NOT lording it over “Disciples of Christ?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 - Are they living examples of - lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 - Are they living examples of - esteeming others better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 - Are they living examples of - submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 - Are they living examples of - prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 - Are they living examples of - being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
7 - Are they living examples of - NOT execising authority like the gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43 KJV

In my experience with “Elder/Overseers”- “Pastor/Leaders”...

If an “Elder/Overseer” does NOT like you asking questions - or checking them out...

then they do NOT qualify...

Run - Run as fast a you can...

9:47 AM, August 10, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

So am taking it Amos you think no churches anywhere should have any sort of leadership? Is that your take? No one really giving the church any direction or offering pastoral ministry?

Just out of curiosity, where exactly do you attend church? Do you think the pastors and elders of that church are "qualified" to offer their leadership?

10:42 AM, August 10, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You ask...
“So am taking it Amos you think no churches anywhere
should have any sort of leadership?”

NOPE - You write about Elders and Qualifications- 8:44 AM, AUG 04,
“Paul gives specific qualifications that distinquishes
what that looks like within an elder,”

I could be wrong - but - You seem to “Ignore” these “Qualifications.”
And - I just mentioned three - 1 - Blameless. 2 - Holy. 3 - Just.

You write at the end of your post...
“A ending word to church members who like to cry “spiritual abuse”
and “hyper-authoritarianism.”

“Similarly, members of the flock must heed the exhortation
following Peter's words to shepherds:
Likewise you younger **submit to your elders.**”

Does the Bible require us to submit to an “Elder/Overseer?”
Who does NOT meet the “Qualifications?”
According to what is written in the Bible?

Seems believers have the right to check out all “Elder/Overseers.”

And we beseech you, brethren, **to know them**
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord,
and admonish you;
1 Thess 5:12 KJV

In my experience with - “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
And - “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”
They often - “Say” one thing and “Do” another.

Mat 23:3 ...but do not ye after their works: for they “say,”and “do” not.

“Pastors who Abuse” will “Say” there are important “Qualifications”
for - Elders/Overseers - And - so-called Pastors even preach...
1 Tim 3:1-10 and Titus 1:5-, as the biblical standard.

BUT - ‘Pastor/Elders who Abuse” “Ignore” or “Twist” or “Re-define”
these “Qualifications” to explain why he, and his “Yes Men” “Qualify.”

The Bible talks about “Elders/Overseers.”
And very tough **Qualifications** for “Elder/Overseers.”

Can you have one without the other?

Fred...
Aren't ALL the “Qualifications” important?
Can you have “Elder/Overseers” without “Qualifications?”
What should Your “Elder/Overseers” do - If they do NOT quallify?

7:26 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You recommended - Alexander Strauch - And - Biblical Eldership.

I’ve read a little - And agree with almost ALL of what he says here.

“So in the first century, *NO Christian* would dare take the *Position* or *Title* of sole ruler, overseer, or *Pastor* of the church. We Christians today, however, are so accustomed to speaking of "the pastor" that we do not stop to realize that *the New Testament does NOT.* This fact is profoundly significant, and we must not permit our customary practice to shield our minds from this important truth. There is only “ONE” flock and “ONE” Pastor (John 10:16), “ONE” body and “ONE” Head (Col. 1:18), one holy priesthood and one great High Priest (Heb. 4:14ff.), one brotherhood and one Elder Brother (Rom. 8:29), one building and one Cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5ff.), one Mediator, one Lord. Jesus Christ is "Senior Pastor," and all others are His undershepherds (1 Peter 5:4)."

- Alexander Strauch, Biblical Eldership: An Urgent Call To Restore Biblical Church Leadership, (pp. 114-115).

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

7:38 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos writes,

I could be wrong - but - You seem to “Ignore” these “Qualifications.”

What gives you the idea I'm ignoring those qualifications? The Bible clearly tells us that God wants men to lead his church. We call them elders. Elders are to be marked by certain qualifications. From what I read from you, you seem to be of the opinion no one man meets those qualifications. That would be rather ridiculous of Paul to say such individuals can meet those qualifications when no one truly can. What would be the point of him listing them?

Can you have “Elder/Overseers” without “Qualifications?”
What should Your “Elder/Overseers” do - If they do NOT quallify?


I work from the presupposition that there are men who do qualify. If one does not "qualify" ideally, they should step down when confronted. Some perhaps don't, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are abusive, cultic leaders as I have been arguing against survivor bloggers. It's men who at that point in their lives don't qualify maturity-wise.

Like I stated in that previous post I linked you to, Christians have the word of God. If a pastor behaves himself in an abusive manner, that is where the Christian is obligated to gently correct. If the elder won't hear the correction, I believe the only course of action a Christian can take is leave that local church and attend elsewhere.

It is sinful for that Christian to argue contentiously against the leadership either verbally or by the use of blogs, by spreading slander and divisiveness among the others who choose to stay in that church.

9:33 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You ask...
“What gives you the idea I'm ignoring those qualifications?”

Well - Let see - At - 11:21 AM, AUGUST 04, 2012

I mentioned the first “Qualification” in both 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
*Must Be Blameless.*

And sent you an extensive definition for *Must Be* and *Blameless.*

And you NEVER commented about this tough qualification.

1 - A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**... 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 - For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**... Titus 1:7 KJV

Then asked if...
“And if you can see yourself as **blameless:** Is that pride?
And no longer without fault? Oy Vey! ;-)

These seem to me to be reasonable questions to ask - Yes?

So - If you’re NOT answering these first questions about this first
“Qualification” *Must Be Blameless*

I just had “the idea” you were ignoring this first “Qualification.”

Then - At - 7:13 AM, AUGUST 05, 2012 - a day later.

I mentioned two more tough Qualifications - 2 - Just. 3 - Holy.
And again sent you an extensive understanding of - 2 - Just. 3 - Holy.

And you NEVER responded to - 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. - Either.

So - Again I had “the idea” you were ignoring these “Qualifications.”

If I’m wrong - And you’re NOT ignoring these “Qualifications...
Maybe you could at least comment about...
1 - Must Be Blameless. 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. For an “Elder/Overseer?

And - Here is an important question for you personally...

Would you ever present these “Qualifications” to your
“Pastors/Elders/Overseers” and ask them if they think they qualify?

I mean - these “Qualifications” are NOT opinion or Christianese...
This is what anyone can find in the Bible.

Thanks

10:26 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

Continuation of...
“What gives you the idea I'm ignoring those qualifications?”

Then five days later - At - 9:47 AM, AUGUST 10, 2012...

I sent you 7 more “Qualifications” that most do NOT think about...

Are these - wanna-be - “Elder/Overseers - Living examples of...
1 - NOT lording it over “Disciples of Christ?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 - Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 - Esteeming others better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 - Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 - Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 - Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
7 - NOT exercising authority like the gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43 KJV

And I think you’ll agree with me...
These Qualifications - Are required of ALL. :-)

I see these “Qualifications” lacking in - “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
And - “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

Now - you have to admit - these Seven Qualifications are good stuff...
To help expose - Those - “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
And - “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

So - By you NOT commenting on these Seven Qualifications...

Again I had “the idea” you were ignoring these “Qualifications.”

If I’m wrong again - maybe you can comment on them...

And - maybe we can help folks NOT get entangled with...
“Pastors” who Abuse, And are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

Maybe we can warn Pastors about - “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
And - “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

10:58 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos writes,

I mentioned the first “Qualification” in both 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
*Must Be Blameless.*


Well. You never really defined what it means to be "blameless" in a practical fashion. You asked something of a silly question along the lines of "If you think you are blameless is that being prideful?", which I can only conclude means a person is no longer blameless. But obviously a person can be blameless, because Paul states that an elder can be. So it behooves you to define what he means by "blameless."

If blameless means to be free of any personal sin, then nobody is blameless and Paul contradicts himself. So he must have something else in mind when he lists that qualification.

I happen to believe a man can be blameless, just and holy according to what Paul is writing. Strauch's book goes into a detailed study of these terms. Did you see them? My pastor has also taught on this subject if you go to www.gty.org and search for his various studies on elders and church leadership.

11:01 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Again Amos,
I told you that if a pastor is abusive with his authority than he needs to be confronted. If he won't heed that admonishment and change, then leave the church. What more do you want me to say? That is the only biblical thing any Christian can do. If that happens, go find a church where the leadership is at least attempting to meet those qualifications and submit to them.

Fred

11:04 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You say...
“Well. You never really defined what it means to be "blameless"
in a practical fashion.”

You are correct - “Blameless” was “Defined” from a “Biblical” fashion.

And I thought we should be accurate - NOT practical. ;-)

When did “Practical” become a “Qualification” of “Elder/Overseer?”

Here it is again. *Blameless* - Along with *Must Be*

-------------

Why would someone become an elder/overseer - If they do NOT qualify?

If they are NOT Blameless?

1 - A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**... 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 - For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**... Titus 1:7 KJV

*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s - necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
That *must be* is the same Greek word as:
...You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
Seems to be a small word - but very important. Yes?

1 - **Blameless**... How important is this word?
Strongs #423 - anepileptos - inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.
Thayer’s - that cannot be reprehended, (cannot be, rebukable,
reprovable, cannot find fault) not open to censure, irreproachable.

Dictionary - Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.
Synonyms - faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless.

--------------

And here is Bill Monce -
“He is the New Testament chair of the English Standard Version translation of the Bible, and am serving on the NIV translation committee.”

Must be - “δει is a strong word; it leaves NO wiggle room.”

“What is Necessary (δει) for Church leadership? (1 Tim 3:2)”

http://www.billmounce.com/monday-mounce/what-necessary-%CE%B4%CE%B5%CE%B9-church-leadership-1-tim-3-2

1 Tim 3:2 says that “an overseer must be (δει) above reproach.” δει is a strong word; it leaves no wiggle room. This is supported by its use throughout the Pastorals, throughout Paul, and throughout the NT (see my commentary, pp 169f). If a person is to be in a position of church leadership, then they must meet the overall standard of being “above reproach.”

11:46 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

You are correct - “Blameless” was “Defined” from a “Biblical” fashion.

And I thought we should be accurate - NOT practical. ;-)


Actually, all you've done so far is provide me with lexical definitions. Those may be good, but you didn't give how Paul was using the word. What does Paul mean when he says a man is to be "blameless." Blameless obvously doesn't mean sinless, or Paul wouldn't say a man can be blameless would he?

So was does he mean?

Also, theology does matters in the daily application. By practical, I merely mean to say how is your Christianity practiced before a watching world. Hence, what we believe about what the Bible teaches must have practical value in our day to day lives. It is as James writes, faith with out works is dead. IOW, a man who is saved by faith will show that salvation in his outward life.

11:58 AM, August 11, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

Do you really think it’s beneficial to “Twist” and “Re-define” what is
“Written?” ALL these tough Qualifications given by Paul?

1 – “Must Be” **blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.

..... You’re very sure and accurate when it comes to gender - Yes?
..... Don’t you refer to this one when you dis-qualify female/elders?

3 – rules well his own house — have a family, children in subjection.

..... For if a man know not how to rule his own house,
..... how shall he take care of the church of God? 1 Tim 3:4-5.

..... 77% of “Pastor/Elders” say - They do NOT have a good marriage.
..... Wow - 77% of “Pastor/Elders” - Do NOT rule well their own house.
..... Doesn’t this - one qualification - dis-qualify 77% of Pastor/Elders?
..... “IF” they are honest?

4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.

..... How many Pastors in Pulpits Preaching to People in Pews
..... Do you know who are Modest? Unassuming? Reserved?
..... Wow - Calm in spirit? Sound mind? - There goes a bunch more.

8 – no striker — NOT quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — NOT self pleasing, NOT arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.

..... Well, Here’s five more - I do NOT qualify for. ;-)
..... How about you Fred? Do you know anyone who meets these five?
..... There can’t be many “Pastor/Elders” left after these five. Yes?

13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

..... And their children must qualify also…
..... “having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” Titus 1:6

15 – faithful children— believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
..... an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.

..... Fred - Do you know any Pastor/Elders - who have teenagers? ;-)
..... Do you know any teenagers - NOT accused of being “disobediant?”
..... These three have to dis-qualify a bunch of “Pastor/Elders”. Yes?

Now, that’s a tough list qualifications. Yes?
And - Don’t you believe that ALL the qualifications are important?

When you believe the lie you start to die...

7:05 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos writes,
Do you really think it’s beneficial to “Twist” and “Re-define” what is
“Written?” ALL these tough Qualifications given by Paul?


I haven't twisted anything. Where are you seeing "twisting?"

..... You’re very sure and accurate when it comes to gender - Yes?
..... Don’t you refer to this one when you dis-qualify female/elders?

Yes. So what's the point

3 – rules well his own house — have a family, children in subjection.

..... For if a man know not how to rule his own house,
..... how shall he take care of the church of God? 1 Tim 3:4-5.

..... 77% of “Pastor/Elders” say - They do NOT have a good marriage.

Where are you getting your stats? Let's grant your claim. All the pastors/elders I know have a tremendous marriage. SO they're qualified

..... How many Pastors in Pulpits Preaching to People in Pews

All of them

..... Do you know who are Modest? Unassuming? Reserved?

Yes

..... Wow - Calm in spirit? Sound mind? - There goes a bunch more.

All the ones I know meet these qualifications.

8 – no striker — NOT quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — NOT self pleasing, NOT arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.

..... Well, Here’s five more - I do NOT qualify for. ;-)
..... How about you Fred? Do you know anyone who meets these five?

Yes. I know loads of them. What kind of church are you attending?

..... There can’t be many “Pastor/Elders” left after these five. Yes?

On the contrary, I know many. Not sure who you are looking at.

13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

..... And their children must qualify also…
..... “having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” Titus 1:6

All the ones I know have faithful children, too.

..... Fred - Do you know any Pastor/Elders - who have teenagers? ;-)
..... Do you know any teenagers - NOT accused of being “disobediant?”
..... These three have to dis-qualify a bunch of “Pastor/Elders”. Yes?

Yes. I know a ton of them. By the way, disobedient does not mean sinless.

Now, that’s a tough list qualifications. Yes?

Indeed

And - Don’t you believe that ALL the qualifications are important?

Yes

When you believe the lie you start to die...

What the heck does that mean? Obviously, Paul was a liar in your book, right? I mean, he laid out all of these qualifications and according to you, no one meets them, so Paul was wrong with assuming there are individuals who can meet this list. SO I have an error in my Bible, then?

7:43 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You write...
"What the heck does that mean?"

Was wondring...

Is "Heck" the place that people go...

Who don't believe in "Gosh?"

And - You're ...
11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger.

Are you?

8:04 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You write...
“What does Paul mean when he says a man is to be "blameless."
(1) Blameless obviously doesn't mean sinless,
(2) or Paul wouldn't say a man can be blameless would he?”

“(3) So what does he mean?”

(1) You’re correct - Blameless does NOT mean sinless. ;-)
You said that. Maybe you’re NOT aware - but you do that often.
If you’d like - I’ll point out when you’ve changed the scripture.

Here is the short version of what was said...
1 - Must Be Blameless - cannot find fault, not open to censure.
2 - Just - guiltless, keeping the commands of God, innocent, faultless.
3 - Holy - undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, pure holy, pious,
..... religiously observing **every** moral obligation.

(2) And - Paul never says - “a man “can be” blameless”

Paul says - a couple of times - An Overseer “Must Be” Blameless.
NOT - “a man “can be” Blameless.” You added that.

And - After “You Say” Paul says “a man can be blameless” - You ask...
“(3) So what does he mean?”

How about - Paul means exactly what is written?

You might NOT have noticed this - But...
In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, to ordain elders in every city.
BUT - In verse 6, Paul “Introduces a Condition”
“Before” Titus can ordain anyone - by saying...

6 - *IF* any “be blameless.”

This is a very large, little, word: *IF.*
This *IF* is found many times in scripture. Yes?

In verse 7, Paul explains why he “Introduces this Conditional” *IF*

7 - For a bishop “must be” “Blameless.”

In the next comment - I’ll give you one understandings of why
Paul gave so many tough Qualifications.

Titus 1:6 **If** any be blameless...
Titus 1:7 For a bishop *must be* blameless...

What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.”

8:07 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Yes. They get darned there.

Now, answer the question. Did Paul lie when he listed those qualifications for elders? Can men meet these qualifications or was Paul wrong for assuming they can?

BTW, Did Jesus disqualify himself when he was angry? Mark 3:5?

8:07 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

“They get darned there” Thanks - That’s a new one for me. :-)

You write...
“Now, answer the question.
Did Paul lie when he listed those qualifications for elders?”

Nope - Paul did “NOT lie” when he listed the qualifications.
We just disagree with - Why the qualifications are so tough.
I do have some ideas - I’ll share them with you soon.

You write...
“I haven't twisted anything. Where are you seeing "twisting?"

Do you have a guilty conscience? I never said “you,” Fred, twisted.
Hmmm? - Maybe - “Thou dost protest too much!”

I was thinking about the “Pastor/Elders” that change the meaning of
1 - Must Be Blameless. 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. So they can obtain this
Power - Profit - Prestige - Honor - Reputation. That comes with having
the “Title/Position,” and being known as - “Pastor/Revered/Leader.”

You write...
“BTW, Did Jesus disqualify himself when he was angry? Mark 3:5?”

Nope - Jesus was only angry with the “Religious Leaders” of His Day.
The rest of us common unedujumaceted sinners received His Love.

And - It’s always a “just cause” to be angry with those un-qualified
“Pastor/Elders who Abuse.” Those addicted to “Exercising Authority.”
Those who take advantage of un-suspecting young believers.
And heap a bunch of “Heavy Burdens” on their shoulders. Mt 23:4

And - “You” do NOT have to answer these questions...

Did *you lie* - when you said - in reference to the 17 Qualifications..

..... “All the ones I know meet these qualifications.”
..... “Yes. I know loads of them.”
..... “On the contrary, I know many.”
..... “All the ones I know have faithful children, too.”
..... “Yes. I know a ton of them.”

..... Sorry - I’m having a hard time believing you here. :-(
..... Maybe you answered a little too quickly - to prove a point.
..... I’ll just forgive you now... Without you having to ask forgiveness.

BUT - If what you say is true - Maybe I can visit where you fellowship
and chat with ALL your ”Elder/Overseers” face to face, and present
this list of Qualifications and ask them - If they Qualify?

They wouldn’t mind that - Would they?

Be glad to do it at my own expense - I could be wrong -
Sure would like to meet anyone who meets Pauls tough qualifications.

You also write...
..... By the way, disobedient does NOT mean sinless. - Ooops!!!

..... Well - Thanks to you’re bloopper...
..... We’re finaly in agreement about something. ;-)

Jesus loves us this I know...

9:29 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You ask me to go to your pastor and Strauch for what they think.

Why? - Shouldn’t believers be able to find our answers in “The Bible?”

And - Why do you ask me to read from Strauch - and your Pastor?

Seems Strauch is NOT happy with today’s “Title/Postion” “Pastor.”

“So in the first century, *NO Christian* would dare take the *Position* or *Title* of sole ruler, overseer, or *Pastor* of the church. We Christians today, however, are so accustomed to speaking of "the pastor" that we do not stop to realize that *the New Testament does NOT.*

Hmmm? Strauch says...
“NO Christian* would dare take the *Position* or *Title* of...
*Pastor* of the church.”

..... Do you know anyone with the “Title/Postion” of “Pastor/Elder?”
..... Have you told them what Strauch says?
..... What was their reaction?

“Christians today, however, are so accustomed
to speaking of "the pastor”...

..... Fred - Do you speak about “The Pastor?”
..... Do you realize the NT does NOT?

“we do not stop to realize that
*the New Testament does NOT.*”

..... Fred - Have you ever checked out the NT and Pastor/Elders?
..... Can you name one person with the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader?
..... How about anyone who is called “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... Or, anyone - Hired - or Fired - as a “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”

Shouldn’t believers be able to find our answers in “The Bible?”

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

9:39 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos writes,
Nope - Paul did “NOT lie” when he listed the qualifications.
We just disagree with - Why the qualifications are so tough.
I do have some ideas - I’ll share them with you soon.


I take it that you are gonna float the idea that the qualifications are so tough because Paul was showing us that no one can meet them but Jesus so only Jesus is the only bishop/overseer/elder and thus all people who claim to be elders are really false elders. At least that is the way I see this discussion heading.

Do you have a guilty conscience? I never said “you,” Fred, twisted.
Hmmm? - Maybe - “Thou dost protest too much!”


Come on. You wrote, "Do you really think it’s beneficial to “Twist” and “Re-define” what is
“Written?”" When you say "do YOU really think" I take it that you are at least addressing me or something that I wrote. If that is not what you meant, then you need to be a bit more clear and concise with your comment.

And - It’s always a “just cause” to be angry with those un-qualified
“Pastor/Elders who Abuse.” Those addicted to “Exercising Authority.”
Those who take advantage of un-suspecting young believers.
And heap a bunch of “Heavy Burdens” on their shoulders. Mt 23:4


The Pharisees were not elders or pastors over Christ's church. BTW, I wasn't angry to begin with. You're reading that into my comment.

Did *you lie* - when you said - in reference to the 17 Qualifications..

Nope, it's the God honest truth. I'll even introduce you to them if you come to our Shepherd's Conference next March.

BUT - If what you say is true - Maybe I can visit where you fellowship
and chat with ALL your ”Elder/Overseers” face to face, and present
this list of Qualifications and ask them - If they Qualify? ... Be glad to do it at my own expense - I could be wrong -
Sure would like to meet anyone who meets Pauls tough qualifications.


Certainly. Grace Community Church of the Valley. Elder meetings are every third Thursday of the month.

They wouldn’t mind that - Would they?

They would welcome the scrutiny. Won't say they will agree with how you understand this qualifications, because they are strictly your own.

You ask me to go to your pastor and Strauch for what they think.
Why? - Shouldn’t believers be able to find our answers in “The Bible?”
And - Why do you ask me to read from Strauch - and your Pastor?


Because, as the Bible teaches, God has given pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints (Ephesians 4:11,12) It is foolish to think there are not godly men God has raised up to help the church understand the Bible. You have a woefully inept understanding of leadership in the church, nearly antinomian. Your mistaken and you need to be taught correctly.

NO Christian* would dare take the *Position* or *Title* of...*Pastor* of the church.”

I couldn't find the citation in my edition of the book to check if you were citing it in context or cherry picking selective comments that don't necessarily reflect his take on leadership. You're page numbering may be different. Be that as it may, if no one took the title, why does the Bible talk about "elders" in Acts 11:30, 14:23, 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23, 20:17, 21:18, James 5:14. Peter calls men "shepherds" in 1 Peter 5:2. Who were these men? If Paul and Luke calls them "elders" why wouldn't they call themselves that? Who were these "Bishops" mentioned by Paul in his letter to the Philippians? What I see in the early church doesn't match what you think Strauch is saying.

The NT speaks about Pastors in Ephesians 4:11, 12. Who were they? Why are they called that?

Rather than the Bible contradicting what I think, it looks more like it disagrees with you.

BTW, you still haven't told me where you attend church. Why are you dodging that question?

10:04 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You write...
“Because, as the Bible teaches, God has given pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints (Ephesians 4:11,12)

Yes - that’s correct - the Bible does say that - BUT...
The pastors in the Bible were Nothing like todays “Pastors/Reverend.”

In The Bible - They did NOT have - “Titles.”
They did NOT promote themselves - as a “Special Clergy Class.”
They did NOT call themselves “Reverend.”
They did NOT call themselves “Leader.”

NO - the pastors in the Bible - are Nothing like we see today.

I’ll ask again...

..... Fred - Have you ever checked out the NT and Pastor/Elders?
..... Can you name one person with the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader?
..... How about anyone who is called “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... Or, anyone - Hired - or Fired - as a “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”

I’d be more then willing to help you answer these questions...
“IF” you need help?

And - Are you “Ignoring” Pauls *IF* in Titus. I did write...

--------

You might NOT have noticed this - But...
In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, to ordain elders in every city.
BUT - In verse 6, Paul “Introduces a Condition”
“Before” Titus can ordain anyone - by saying...

6 - *IF* any “be blameless.”

This is a very large, little, word: *IF.*
This *IF* is found many times in scripture. Yes?

In verse 7, Paul explains why he “Introduces this Conditional” *IF*

7 - For a bishop “must be” “Blameless.”

----------

Yes - An Elder/Overeer Must Be Blameless - with the other 17 Quals.
Seems to me this “Conditional” *IF* - Allows Titus the liberty
To NOT appoint Elder/Overseers - *IF* they do NOT qualify?

Jer 50:6
*My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
“their shepherds” have caused them “to go astray,”

1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep “going astray;”
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Jesus - The Shepherd and Bishop of my soul.

11:01 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Yes - that’s correct - the Bible does say that - BUT...
The pastors in the Bible were Nothing like todays “Pastors/Reverend.”


What? The "Bible says that BUT...? Seriously? Either the Bible means what it says or it doesn't. Whether or not there are individuals who abuse the title of pastor does not mean it's not biblical. Obviously it is, because Paul calls these individuals "pastors." So, there was some distinct clergy class. Paul even provides exhortation on financially supporting those in full time ministry in 1 Cor. 9.

Moving along,
..... Fred - Have you ever checked out the NT and Pastor/Elders?
..... Can you name one person with the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader?
..... How about anyone who is called “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... Or, anyone - Hired - or Fired - as a “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”


Yes to all of those. How exactly is my affirmative relevant to your argument?

And - Are you “Ignoring” Pauls *IF* in Titus. I did write...

I am not ignoring them. The use of "if" does not mean none exist. Paul assumes some do or he wouldn't tell Titus find them and appoint them.

Yes - An Elder/Overeer Must Be Blameless - with the other 17 Quals.
Seems to me this “Conditional” *IF* - Allows Titus the liberty
To NOT appoint Elder/Overseers - *IF* they do NOT qualify?


It also allows him the liberty when he finds them. They had to be there or there would be no need for listing qualifications.

When are you gonna answer my question as to where you attend church? Do you have a church you attend every Sunday?

11:30 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You are correct - I need to be a liitle more precise.

I asked...

..... Fred - Have you ever checked out the NT and Pastor/Elders?
..... Can you name one person with the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader?
..... How about anyone who is called “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... Or, anyone - Hired - or Fired - as a “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”

Yes to all of those.
How exactly is my affirmative relevant to your argument?

_______


Let me ask again - and add - “From the Bible.”

“From the Bible.”
Can you name one person with the “Title/Position” Pastor/Leader?
..... I can’t find one of His Disciples with the “Title” - Pastor/Leader.

“From the Bible.”
Can you name anyone who was “called” “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... I can’t find one of His Disciples who was “called” - Pastor.

“From the Bible.”
Can you name anyone - Hired - or Fired -“Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
..... I can’t find anyone - Hired - or Fired -“Pastor/Reverend/Leader?

-------

And - I’d be more then willing to help you answer these questions...
“IF” you need help?

11:57 AM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You ask...
“BTW, you still haven't told me where you attend church.
Why are you dodging that question?”

Well - First - This question has no relevance in this matter...

“Pastors who Abuse” and are addicted to “Exercising Authority.”
Folks who “Take” a “title” and “Position” NOT in the Bible.
“Elder/Overseers” who do NOT meet the Qualifiacations.

And - Second - I figured it’s a “Trick” question. ;-)

When I entered the words - “attend church” - into the “Search”
box on my computer Bible program...

NOT one verse showed up - Seems NO one in the Bible ever thought
they should, or were required to - “Attend Church.”

And - I couldn’t find anyone - telling a believer to - “Attend Church.”
And - I couldn’t find anyone - telling a believer to - Go To Church -
Join a Church - Give Money To a Church - Tithe to a Church. etc...

So - Since none of this stuff is in the Bible...

I figured you were tricking me - with a “Trick” question. ;-)

12:08 PM, August 13, 2012  
Blogger A. Amos Love said...

Fred

You write - AUGUST 13, 2012...
“Come on. You wrote, "Do you really think it’s beneficial to “Twist” and “Re-define” what is
“Written?”" When you say "do YOU really think" I take it that you are at least addressing me.”

You asked... “Where are you seeing "twisting?" (Thanks for asking.)
I wasn’t - “addressing” - you - but - If you insist - I will.

Fred - Why do you - Often - “Twist” the Word of God? The Scriptures?

Twist - Dictionary
To distort, misrepresent, change, alter, pervert, falsify, warp, skew,
misinterpret, misconstrue, misstate, misquote - the meaning of words.

I checked back on our comments - In my first one I questioned you...
“Do you have a reason for “changing” this scripture verse?”
After checking the dictionary - I see - Twist - also means to - Change.
-----------------
Here’s 3 things in the first comment - you - “Twist” and “Misrepresent.”

1 - Seems 1 Pet 5:3 is referring to elders - but you used pastors.
1 - Do you have a reason for “changing” (Twisting) this scripture verse?

2 - And - In 1 Pet 5:3, These elders are NOT to be **lords over God’s heritage.** But - You write - “not to "lord over" those that have been entrusted to them.”

2 - Do you have a reason for “changing” (Twisting) this scripture verse?

3 - Also - Where do you find pastors as “Spiritual Leaders” in the Bible?
-----------------
Now, #3, you did NOT answer. Because you can’t - From the Bible.
That might be what your Pastor/Elders teach - to control folks - BUT...
The Bible never says a pastor is a “Spiritual Leader.”

3 - So here you “Mis-Represent”(Twist) the Bible by teaching that.
And whoever teaches that - Also “Mis-Represent”(Twist) the Bible.
------------------
In the Bible - Our “Spiritual Leader” is Jesus - He says “Follow Me.”
Jesus NEVER tells us to follow a “Mere Fallible Human.”

And - the Holy Spirit is our “Spiritual Leader.” Romans 8:14...
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

... O my people, “they which lead thee” cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isa 3:12

For “the leaders” of this people “cause them to err;”
and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Isa 9:16
-----------------

To be continued

Fred - Why do you - Often - “Twist” the Word of God? The Scriptures?

6:22 AM, August 14, 2012  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Amos,
I'm done talking about this. Just searching around the internet, there are a good number of blogs where you've trollishly cut-n-paste similar comments over and over on this one pet issue since at least 2009.

I get it, you don't like authority. You're an antinomian. You've chosen to be your own man out there in left field by yourself. You and Jesus worshiping together in your apartment or where ever. That's your prerogative I guess. I only call you to repentance and pity your soul.

I am not approving any more of your posts. We've had our say. I believe you are wrong. SO move along to somewhere else.

6:30 AM, August 14, 2012  

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