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Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Thursday, June 16, 2011

A Stroll Through Asinine Territory

dehartsUnder this post, commenter, “c.t.” leaves this knuckle busting comment:

Why would a King James Only person (however you want to define such a person) be shocked by an original 1611 AV? You really think a KJV-O doesn't know about font and spelling differences and the Preface and so on? And why the constant attitude that people who are KJV-O (or whatever) are dumb? You sound like leftists talking about Tea Party people. All this, "You should see the look on their face when I show them a leaf from a 1611 and it's from an apocryphal book..." Really? KJV-O people don't know the Apocrypha was included in the original 1611 between the Old and New Testaments? They don't? Really? How long a shelf life will these straw men have for you guys? If you think the only reason people don't agree with you is because they are stupid you are in asinine territory. Again, think of the idiot glow of self-glorified leftists in our world today. Try to convince them they are village idiots. Can't do it. You don't want to be where they are, guys. Wake up.

Indeed.

Let’s back up and note some highlights:

You really think a KJV-O doesn't know about font and spelling differences and the Preface and so on?

I am not sure what part of Asinine Territory you have ventured through, but from my visits, yes, most individuals who call themselves “KJV-Only” don’t know about font, spelling differences, the preface, and so on. In fact, when I have pointed these things out to them and the problems it presents for their “onlyist” apologetic, many of them react with bewilderment. It’s a similar reaction I use to see when these same “onlyists” learned that “G.A. Riplinger” is really a twice-divorced woman, rather than a man.

And why the constant attitude that people who are KJV-O (or whatever) are dumb?

That’s a dishonest overstatement. I don’t think David Cloud is “dumb.” He’s certainly a bomb thrower, but he’s not “dumb.”

“Dumb” implies they lack intelligence, and even though I have met a few “dumb” “onlyistst” in my life, the majority are bright, intelligent, and have all the best intentions of honoring God. Rather than being “dumb,” I would say “onlyists” are willfully misinformed and seriously lack discernment. Their views are given to tin-foil hat theology and revisionism. Not only does their apologetic devalue God’s ability to protect His Word as He directs His people to transmit it from one generation to the next, the entire system is held together by a dark, nefarious conspiratorial thread that is suppose to exist in the fabric of Church History. Such things as heretics corrupting manuscripts and new age mystics giving us modern translations to blind us to the coming of the Anti-Christ.

But once you show them these conspiracies are pure fiction, the whole KJV-Only tapestry comes unraveled.

Really? KJV-O people don't know the Apocrypha was included in the original 1611 between the Old and New Testaments? They don't? Really? How long a shelf life will these straw men have for you guys?

Yep. Really.

Regrettably, a good deal of KJV-Onlyists people don’t know the Apocrypha was included in the original 1611. I didn’t know it was included when I was a young, naïve “onlyist.” I think I had to learn that fact from Sam Gipp.

But these remarks miss the point.

The Apocrypha’s inclusion in the original KJV edition is a problem for “onlyists.” They constantly argue how modern versions are translated from manuscripts that were hidden in Catholic monasteries, filed away in the secret vaults of the Vatican library, and that all the modern day textual critics are Pope loving ecumenists. Yet, in the earliest editions of the KJV, it contained the very books that distinguish Roman Catholicism from Reformed Protestantism. If the KJV is the seven-fold purified Word of God kept intact in English as the chorus of KJV advocates proclaim, why would God allow false, soul damning books to be included in the initial translation to begin with? Do you not see the inconsistency?

Moreover, the inclusion of the entire letter from the translators to the readers further exposes “onlyists’” to the absurdities of their mythos regarding the KJV, particularly the fact that the KJV translators utilized a multitude of ancient sources including the LXX, a document the greatest body of “onlyists” insist was a forgery of Origen published some 2 1/2 centuries after Christ. Not to mention the use of inserting marginal readings that clearly provide an alternative translation to various passages, alternative translations that are often found in modern versions, but are criticized by “onlyists” as examples of “corrupting God’s Word.”

You may not like my neighborhood here in Asinine Territory, but at least we are honest and haven’t blinded ourselves to reality.

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19 Comments:

Blogger David Kjos said...

Years ago, when I dallied with KJVOism, I didn't know the 1611 contained the Apocrypha. Some time later I emailed the fact to a KJVO apologist, and his reply was something like "That's just another of the satanic lies spread by Bible perverters like you."

7:04 AM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Chris Poe said...

Years ago I had the Apocrypha discussion with a KJVO. Although it probably went on a little longer, the outlines of it went something like this:

KJVO: "I was raised Independent Baptist but go to a Southern Baptist church now. I like it ok, except for some of the liberalism."

Me: "Can you give me some examples of this liberalism?" (I was interested to know, since I was beginning to suspect that the Conservative Resurgence in SBC life may not have been conservative enough in some respects.)

KJVO: "They preach and teach from these modern versions instead of the KJV."

Me: "Did you know that the original KJV included the Apocrypha?"

KJVO: "Apoc wha who errr... I stand on the KJV as God's preserved Word!" (or some similar exclamation.)

8:25 AM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Edward said...

Fred, My experience with the KJVO people has been as you described. I live in the heart of Peter Ruckman country. Just by accident not knowing who Peter Ruckman was I went to the Pensacola Bible Institute book store looking for a NASB 1995 update study bible. I ask the lady at the counter if they had it and she pointed to the bibles and said that is what we have. It wasn't long before a man with thick glasses came to me and ask if I needed help. I told him what I was looking for. He stared at me for awhile. It looked like his eyes were in the lens of his glasses like you see on cartoons and they were bearing down on me. He said we only have the King James and reached around and grabbed a pamphlet and said here read this. I said thanks and walked out. The pamphlet was about all the bibles being corrupt except the King James. Later I learned about the "Ruckmanites" and then I understood what the encounter was all about.

9:14 AM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Sir Aaron said...

Great post. I've learned alot about KJV onlynism here.

Also, I appreciate your posts on conspiracy theories. I have a couple friends who dabble in the whole Obama conspiracy and other stuff. Naturally, working for the government I've tried to explain to them how difficult it is to keep anything a secret much less something of such significance.ree

2:07 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger c.t. said...

Your problem is people usually go from modern versions to the Received Text. Just as people usually go from Dispensationalism to classical Covenant - Federal- Theology. It's a progression of darkness to light. Confusion to clarity and understanding.

Just as people usually go from being a default leftist to becoming a conservative. To be a leftist you just have to be born. To become a conservative you have to at some point acquire a library card and use it.

This is why you guys stay so petulantly on your strawman of the dumb fundamentalist born with a KJV in his crib and refusing to ever let it go.

The first Bible I ever read complete was an NRSV. When I learned of the manuscript issues I wanted the real thing.

When you first become a Christian, or move in that direction, you read modern version and accept all their arguments. You also automatically encounter Dispensationalism of one stripe or another. Then as you grow in your understanding of it all you desire the pure and whole word of God, the Received Text in sound translation, which is still only the Authorized - King James - Version; and you discover Federal Theology (if you really crave on-the-mark biblical doctrine at the deepest level).

2:26 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Edward said...

Quote "I have a couple friends who dabble in the whole Obama conspiracy and other stuff."

Don't blame me. I voted for the American!

6:09 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Sir Aaron said...

Well that pretty much sums up my encounters with conspiracy theorists. They never let facts get in the way.

6:14 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger P.D. Nelson said...

Nice use of the jawbone there Fred. Unfortunately the Philistines seem to be multiplying. Keep doing the this ok brother.

10:08 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

On the Obama thing, yes, it must be hard to keep big things secret. I have had Kenyan friends who think the whole thing is hilarious. In Kenya, his father was a well-known political figure, so there were many people around who witnessed Obama's birth. His birthplace is well-known and marked. His family are often interviewed on TV. There are photographs. At least according to the Kenyans. They are very proud that one of their own went so high on the world stage.

On the KJVO people, what about the actual scholars among them? And what about the Majority Text people?

11:41 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Peter, can you direct me to any website that will confirm your comments about Obama's birthplace in Kenya being well-known and marked? I ask because I wish to know.

On the KJV-Only matter, there are of course types and degrees of KJV-Onlyism. What they all tend to exhibit is the desire for certainty over truth. Thus D.A. Waite will refer to the TR as 'The Majority Text', when it includes a number of distinctive readings that are decidedly minority - for example the Comma Johanneum and the uniquely Latin reading in Acts 9:5-6. This leads on to the claim that modern versions are based on texts that were subtly altered by heretics - all without any evidence of this having taken place. But it all gives the absolute certainty that the TR is the original text. At its worst this mindset leads to Gail Riplinger's claim that today we can ignore the Greek and Hebrew texts because God has inspired vernacular versions.

1:32 AM, June 18, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I'd be curious about that Obama info as well.

ct writes,
Your problem is people usually go from modern versions to the Received Text. Just as people usually go from Dispensationalism to classical Covenant - Federal- Theology. It's a progression of darkness to light. Confusion to clarity and understanding.

Hmmm. Interesting. Your explanation of James White (Reformed Baptist) is what exactly?

And your explanation of Peter Ruckman (Classic Dispensationalist) is what exactly?

They both seem to ruin your illustration here. Especially Ruckman, who represents pretty much the entire KJVO spectrum who are in turn, Dispensational.

9:23 AM, June 18, 2011  
Blogger Sir Aaron said...

Please don't encourage the Obama nonsense.

12:07 PM, June 18, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

Highland,

No. This is an easy thing to find online. These things are very hard to hide and there was never much secret about it.

More importantly, the president is not particularly powerful. You change whoever it is, and things stay the same.

Render unto Caesar. If we have a bad government it is because we are a wicked people. That's the way it is.

We can whisper that so and so wasn't put into office with due propriety. But the fact is they *are* in office. Oh, well.

If we want a better government, then we must figure out what our sins as Christians are, repent, and preach the Gospel more blamelessly to others. More blameless Christians, a more blameless America.

Maybe God will have mercy. Or maybe He will come back tomorrow.

But Americans have too many idols -- especially ourselves as individuals. We think this, that, or the other is "the solution" -- it's not, it's an idol. Exposing Obama is an idol, too.

Why should God reward an idolatrous people with a wonderful, righteous ruler? How would we treat him? Read a good, reformed Christian history of Edward VI of England, and I'll make more sense.

That said, my point is that Kenyans laugh at us. We should laugh, too. They say, "The white man's magic works bad now." That's funny but true, isn't it?

For now, render unto Caesar. Doesn't the Bible say that?

Now I'd like to hear more about these KJVO's. This is something I don't know too much about. The KJV is still my favorite version (I love its cadence and the thees and thous), but this KJVO business that Fred describes sounds like another strange idol we Americans are so fond of.

Fred has first-hand knowledge of this strange idol. Say on!

8:28 PM, June 18, 2011  
Blogger c.t. said...

Ruckman and White, like your own teacher Mr. MacArthur, are *invested*. They have publications and income and worldly reputations they feel they need to protect.

It takes a rare individual who chooses his developed understanding of doctrine over his written legacy. A. W. Pink comes to mind.

2:15 AM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Dusman said...

Hi c.t.,

If the only way I can have the "pure word of God" is if it is translated from the TR, which TR? Erasmus' first edition from 1516? Stephanus' 1550 edition? One of the published editions by the Elzevir brothers in 1624 and 1633? Scrivner's edition from the late 19th century? I'm waiting to hear the answer. I went to a TR only seminary and I graduated from it in 2004 and I've been waiting for a consistent answer since then.

I'm sad to say that most KJVO folks I've encountered are just as Fred depicts them: willingly ignorant people who don't want to be confused with the facts.

1:40 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Chris H said...

Peter,

You said: No. This is an easy thing to find online. These things are very hard to hide and there was never much secret about it.

If this is so easy to find online, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to produce even one credible link with a credible story, with actual people we could talk to....

Right? Easy!

I'll leave it to you to produce something so easy.

If you cannot, or will not, then consider what it means to be a false witness.

1:51 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

ct writes,
They have publications and income and worldly reputations they feel they need to protect.

You're missing the large point. You specifically stated that Christians move from the error of "dispensationalism" to the pure light of covenant theology. In the same way they move from a modern version to the pure word of the TR. But, the bulk of the KJVOs are dispensationalists, like Ruckman and White, with a number of other similar mind folks adhere to covenant theology and they do not read the KJV. It looks like your illustration doesn't hold up to reality.

It takes a rare individual who chooses his developed understanding of doctrine over his written legacy. A. W. Pink comes to mind.

I've read pretty much everything Pink has written and when it suited his point, he often cited from the RV over the KJV.

7:12 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Sir Aaron said...

Tim LaHaye's Prophecy Bible is KJV I might add.

7:19 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

Chris H.,

Google up: "obama kenya birthplace." Then think for yourself. Fail that, fly to Kenya.

Psalm 118:9 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes. Please meditate on that.

Now I ask myself: Is this a political forum? Isn't it disrespectful persistently to change the stated subject?

The topic of Fred's article here is interesting.

Blessings!

7:34 PM, June 19, 2011  

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