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Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Tuesday, June 28, 2011

Are You A Flake?

27 Comments:

Blogger donsands said...

This man is such a waste. I hope he comes to serve Christ, and trust in the Lord, and His gospel, but right now this man is a horrible commander in chief, and leader for our nation.
Yep, he's flaky. Like my brother Brian was a flake, and we said to him, "Brian, you have corn flakes for brains. You are the flake of all flakes." Barak fits the same suit.

6:25 PM, June 28, 2011  
Blogger Edward said...

He doesn't do well without his script writers. Or maybe he is smoking something that does not agree with him.

4:01 PM, June 30, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

I have taught junior high school students who could play the part better. They may be thinking the same thing.

11:08 PM, June 30, 2011  
Blogger Whateverman said...

Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian.

Obama's religious biography is unconventional and politically problematic. Born to a Christian-turned-secular mother and a Muslim-turned-atheist African father, Obama grew up living all across the world with plenty of spiritual influences, but without any particular religion. He is now a Christian, having been baptized in the early 1990s at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago.

FYI only

10:28 AM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

It would depend upon how you define the word "Christian." Certainly the guy attended a church that identifies as a Christian church, but it certainly wouldn't be a biblical Christian church. More of a congregation driven by liberation theology and other similar anti-American, religous conspiracy theory.

11:55 AM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger Edward said...

Quote "He is now a Christian, having been baptized in the early 1990s at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago."

I don't care who you are or what position you hold if you are really a Christian you will uphold the Word Of God and NOT support the things he has supported as president. Being baptized has not saved one single person. Being born again through the blood of Jesus Christ is what saves and you will know it by their fruits. There is rotten fruit at the white house.

3:58 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Are folks here saying that God made a mistake?

4:16 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Dave,
I don't see anyone here saying such a thing.

5:11 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Well, they seem to be saying that God chose and/or appointed a flake who doesn't play the part as well junior high school kids to rule over the United State. He's a horrible commander in chief. That sounds like God made a mistake to me.

6:17 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Oh, and he's not even a Christian to boot! Why would God choose such a man?

6:17 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

God sets up all rulers in their respective nations. In our case, a sinful nation that reject God's laws, aborts its children, and cheers on homosexuality, I would imagine he is the product of God's judgment. God gave us the leader we deserve at this time.

6:44 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Looks like one of my comments got lost. You've provided an answer, but for the sake of clarity, the question that goes with your answer was...

To repeat, most here are saying that Obama is a flake, a waste, a terrible commander in chief, etc. A junior high school student could play the part better. This the man that God appointed and/or chose to rule over the United States. God put a horrible man in change of the United States. It seems like mistakes have been made.

6:48 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Now, to get to your answer to my question.

So, Obama is our punishment from God? Was George W. Bush also a punishment? How about Clinton, GHW Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc.?

Which of our presidents have been the "product of God's judgement" and which were ordained for more positive reasons? Given that nations are ALWAYS "sinful" to one degree or another, shouldn't all of the appointed leaders by "products of God's judgement"? Don't we ALWAYS deserve to be ruled over by horrible leaders?

6:54 PM, July 01, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

David states,
Looks like one of my comments got lost.

I have published everyone that has been in my comment dashboard. Are you sure you posted it and not just previewed it thinking it got posted? Also keep in mind that there may exist a few hours delay from when you posted it and when I get around to approving it.

None the less,

continuing,
To repeat, most here are saying that Obama is a flake, a waste, a terrible commander in chief, etc. A junior high school student could play the part better. This the man that God appointed and/or chose to rule over the United States. God put a horrible man in change of the United States. It seems like mistakes have been made.

Actually, the flake comment has a context. Chris Wallace asked that of Michelle Bachmann after she had gotten the hometown wrong for John Wayne in Iowa last week. Because of that flub, Wallace asked her if she was serious or a goofball. It was a dumb question asked really of the wrong person, because Obama has made and still makes similar mistakes when he speaks.

The question of his ability to govern wasn't necessarily intended with the video.

continuing,
God put a horrible man in change of the United States. It seems like mistakes have been made.

No. No one has suggested a mistake has been made. God raises up rulers, some evil, or corrupt, or incompetent, according to his purposes that often times are never revealed to us. However, the Bible lays out a principle that a nation that turns from God will be given the rulers that reflect the current way in which the nation as a whole is headed morally. We are a nation that hates God, murders babies, and openly approves of wicked behavior. God has no obligation to give us good rulers and will in such cases give us bad rulers to work out God's purposes of judgment against a wicked and perverse nation.

But I don't expect you to really care about a biblical perspective on government and judgment seeing that you don't believe in God.

2:19 PM, July 02, 2011  
Blogger donsands said...

David, Did God make a mistake in allowing His Son to be judged by the leaders of Jerusalem, and Rome?

Jesus said, "if I want to I can call for thousands of angels to come and spare me, and destroy you." I thank Him every day He allowed Himself to be tortured and put to death, for it was His Father's will.

have a good 4th of July, Independence Day!

2:47 PM, July 02, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

Most Democrats I know are utterly disgusted with Obama. The powers that picked him promised "change" through him, but instead we got more of what they decried.

I like how Fred ends the following blog-post on Daniel:
..."persecution is an 'appointed time.' It had a purpose: To refine, purify, and make them white. In a manner of speaking, drive Israel to the true God, which"...

We don't know how this will end for America. But we always must examine ourselves and repent!

At present, the world is carrying off the church. But instead, if Christians once again season the people of the world, then maybe the people can discern better right from wrong and agree upon a common game plan.

Repentance begins among churches of true believers. "Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him" (James 2:5)? Instead, we have quietly adopted a worldview accommodating material success. When we meet others who are in a position lower than ours, we think how we made better decisions and how they must have messed up somewhere, obviously.

We think we have mastered what faith takes, but we fail to see how depraved we really are -- far worse than those to whom we feel far superior.

"Persecution is an 'appointed time.' It had a purpose: To refine, purify, and make them white. In a manner of speaking, drive [America] to the true God, which"...

4:16 PM, July 02, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Since only Fred provided a response that is relevant and that directed addressed my comments, I’ll limit myself to responding to Fred.

First, just to be sure I understand, it is accurate to say that you (Fred) think that Obama is a terrible president and that God appointed Obama as a “judgment”? We were given Obama as a punishment and/or as a means to “persuade” us to behave differently. This is your position, yes?

Are you also one who believes that the September 11 attacks were also a “judgment”? (Just curious)

Ok, on the assumption that I understand your position, let’s see if there is any evidence for it. If I misunderstand, I’m sure that you’ll correct me.

1) Can you tell me if George W. Bush also a “judgment”? How about Clinton, GHW Bush, Reagan, Carter, etc.? Can you tell me which presidents were bad presidents anointed as judgments and which were good presidents anointed as blessings? (One major problem with your theses is that I seriously doubt if your list of bad presidents and my list of bad presidents would be close to similar, starting with Obama. But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that we can label our leaders good and bad.)

2) Given that nations are ALWAYS "sinful" to one degree or another, shouldn't all of the appointed leaders by "products of God's judgment"? Don't we ALWAYS deserve to be ruled over by horrible leaders? How do we decide if the nation is “embracing God” at a given point it time? With a little effort, I can look at ANY period in U.S. history and I can find a nation engaged in sinful and immoral behavior. I can look at ANY period and find preachers railing that we’ve turned from God and descended into wickedness. I can find immoral laws and the embrace of immoral things at any point in time I chose.

So, is there any correlation between bad presidents and our nation behaving badly and/or “turning from God”? No, there is none. Zero, nada. Plot the quality of the president on one axis and the moral state of the nation on the other, and all you’ll get is a random scattering of dots.

6:59 AM, July 04, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Now, to address specific comments…

“God raises up rulers, some evil, or corrupt, or incompetent, according to his purposes that often times are never revealed to us.”

The key phrase here is “often not revealed to us”. It’s a mystery. This allows one to declare that Obama is a judgment despite the lack of evidence. So what if it doesn’t make any sense? You despise Obama, you declare that Obama is a judgment, you declare the U.S. to be a wicked nation, and if it doesn’t make sense, it’s because God purpose “is not revealed to us”. It’s an unbeatable argument.

Maybe the reality is that you just despise Obama because your earthly political beliefs, and so you want to think the worst. You want to believe that this is a judgment for our wicked ways, regardless of the lack of evidence. In reality, it’s just your personal partisan politics that guides you here.


“However, the Bible lays out a principle that a nation that turns from God will be given the rulers that reflect the current way in which the nation as a whole is headed morally.”

Again, the data suggest that there is no evidence that this principle is in effect throughout U.S. history (see lack of correlation above).

This also raises the question of collective guilt, a concept that most of us reject (see U.S. treatment of the Germans after WWII; we didn’t kill all Germans, despite the “sins” of the German “nation”).

So, why are the righteous punished along with the unrighteous? Why does God punish the righteous, too? You, Fred, oppose gays and abortions and all manner of wicked behavior, so why are you being punished by the anointing of Obama? Are we responsible for the sins of others?

I’m a practical person, so I’m interested in how these things work. How is the moral direction of a nation determined? How many laws must be immoral laws before judgment kicks in? What percentage of the people must engage in immoral behavior or turn from God before judgment kicks in? At what specific point do we cross the line from a nation that deserves good rulers to a nation that deserves bad rulers? How is this measured?


“ We are a nation that hates God, murders babies, and openly approves of wicked behavior.”

What percentage of Americans “hate God”? How is this determined? Since there will always be at least some who "hate God", we need to ask at what point is the percentage high enough to trigger "judgment"?

With respect to abortion, abortion rates have actually declined significantly, and anti-abortion laws are more numerous and more restrictive than in the recent past. Given that trend, one would expect that God would be anointing good rulers, not bad rulers.


“God has no obligation to give us good rulers and will in such cases give us bad rulers to work out God's purposes of judgment against a wicked and perverse nation.”

But does this make sense? If bad rulers make things worse, is this going to make us less wicked and less perverse? Wouldn’t it be better to have a great ruler who would guide us back to what you see as the “true path” (see Josiah, Hezekiah)?


“But I don't expect you to really care about a biblical perspective on government and judgment seeing that you don't believe in God.”

Well, it’s fair to say that I don’t think that God has been picking our presidents. If I thought that God was picking our presidents, I’d have to conclude that She is one twisted sister.

7:07 AM, July 04, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Dave,
I'll try to comment later when I have a moment. I may even make my remarks a post all its own. At this point, I have other responsibilities that require my attention.

7:32 AM, July 04, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

Maybe Fred will glean something from Daniel on this or maybe he will glean something from Chronicles and Ezra, which together discuss Dave's questions in great detail, king by king, reign by reign, sin by sin, consequence by consequence. But I am not sure if all that work would get at the heart of the disagreement.

Dave said:
1) Can you tell me if George W. Bush also a “judgment”?... One major problem with your theses is that I seriously doubt if your list of bad presidents and my list of bad presidents would be close to similar, starting with Obama... let’s assume that we can label our leaders good and bad.

No, I don't think we can.

Without belief in one God, there is no genuine common ground. We cannot even agree much on what is good and bad.

Without belief in one God, we cannot even define what good and bad are, for each of us has his own "truth."

If one has his own truth, then he is as much right as anyone else. He cannot be challenged, because that would suggest he might be wrong. If he could be wrong, then his truth is not true.

But believing in what is true for everyone requires each of us to submit to something greater than ourselves.

Dave said:
2) Given that nations are ALWAYS "sinful" to one degree or another, shouldn't all of the appointed leaders by "products of God's judgment"? Don't we ALWAYS deserve to be ruled over by horrible leaders? ...

Yes!

The fact that you and I are still here is an act of God's mercy. If he were not patient and merciful, he would have judged the world long ago in wrath — and you, I , and everyone we love would never have been born.

So then, I'd say you are holding two mutually exclusive beliefs:

(1) God is bad because he tolerates a lot of sin in all ages;
(2) God is "one twisted sister" because sometimes he judges bad people with bad leaders.

To be consistent, Dave, could you pick one over the other?

Thank you.

3:33 PM, July 04, 2011  
Blogger David said...

"No, I don't think we can."

Well then, this is about as far as we can go. We can't draw any conclusions at all.

If we can't even say if President X is good or bad, then there's really no way to determine if God annoited President X as a blessing or a judgment, in fact, I don't think that one can even conclude that God annoited President X in the first place. As I said, there are no correlations here, no patterns, no consistency. It's all random noise, and it's what we'd expect if there were no outside forces involved in the selection of presidents or other leaders. The claim that President X is a blessing or judgment comes down to partisan opinion and a desire to mix religion and politics.

I'll be consistent when God is consistent.

4:31 PM, July 05, 2011  
Blogger David said...

Oops, should read "anointed".

4:35 PM, July 05, 2011  
Blogger David said...

There's one other thing that's unclear to me. If leaders are anointed by God, if the anointing is not a mistake, is it ever right and moral to denigrate and ridicule these leaders? Seems to me that this would be ridiculing the handiwork of God. If God put the leader in power, who are we to criticize God's choice?

You know, in the distant past, when leadership was acquired by either inheritance or by killing your way to the top, I can understand how many would conclude that the leader was put in place by the gods. When the vast majority of the population has little or no say in who rules over them, it might be comforting to think that the rulers are somehow being chosen by a divine entity. I can understand how people would conclude that rulers are put in place by powers beyond their control, because, in fact, the chosing of rulers really was beyond their control.

However, once we get democracies and government of the people, by the people and for the people, then the notion that God anoints the ruler becomes outdated. How exactly do you square divine anointing with freely elected governmnents of the people? Unfortunately, those who wrote the Bible could not conceive of modern, democratically elected governments, and we're stuck with the anachronistic ideas like "God anoints our rulers".

8:15 PM, July 05, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

David,

There is great consistency in God being both merciful and just. If God really is good, he must be both.

Christians can draw conclusions, but you cannot; you admit: "there are no correlations here, no patterns, no consistency. It's all random noise."

How does being unable to draw conclusions about life help you here?

We can uphold mercy and justice, but you refused to choose either mercy and justice, and admitted you were "inconsistent."

Why would you admit to denying both mercy and justice?

What has anointing to do with presidents? Is Obama the Queen? "Anointing" is a specific theological term that does not apply.

Watching the video Fred provides, I draw the conclusion that Obama is incompetent to hold any political office in the United States.

Why would you suggest that the man in the video is a blessing?

Why defend Obama?

9:08 PM, July 05, 2011  
Blogger David said...

"Watching the video Fred provides, I draw the conclusion that Obama is incompetent to hold any political office in the United States."

You drew the conclusion that Obama is incompetent to hold any political office...from a blooper reel?? Hey, that's fair. Of course, by this standard, no one in America would be competent to hold office, because you can make a blooper reel for every politician in the country. I think I'm going to have to conclude that I can't really trust your judgment on this matter.

6:28 PM, July 06, 2011  
Blogger Peter said...

A summary of an atheist belief system:

* God is evil because he is merciful and just.
* Christians are awful because they can "draw conclusions" about life.
* In life "there are no correlations here, no patterns, no consistency. It's all random noise."
* Christians believe that presidents are anointed with oil in some super secret ceremony that nobody knows about.
* It's great that Obama believes that 58 or 59 states form the USA.
* It's great that Obama doesn't understand that "unbroken line of fallen heroes" in the script he was reading refers to dead people.
* It's great that Obama thinks (like a small child?), he can make up absurd figures about real, recent events and nobody will know better (10,000 dead and a whole town destroyed vs 11 dead).
* It's alright if Obama is a bit thick, because so is every politician in America.

11:00 PM, July 07, 2011  
Blogger David said...

“Christians believe that presidents are anointed with oil in some super secret ceremony that nobody knows about.”

Did I say anointed with oil? No. I meant “anointed” in the figurative sense of chosen or appointed or put into authority over us by God. In other words, I’m referring to the theological position that God picks our leaders. Is this inconsistent with Christian beliefs?

Did I see that Obama’s bloopers were “great”? No. That’s why I used the word “blooper” as in error, mistake or something that makes someone look bad. Bloopers are not great.

I have to conclude that either I’m not making myself clear or you are a bit too eager to misinterpret what I’ve been saying.

8:30 AM, July 08, 2011  

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