Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Best in Show

A Rant

I must confess that I am emotionally conflicted over this Carrie Prejean situation that has developed over the last couple of weeks.

On the one hand, it is disturbing to see how she has been brutally treated just because her opinion was opposite that of a sexual pervert who happens to have a popular celebrity blog. Honestly, what she said against so-called gay marriage would be nothing if Perez Hilton hadn't posted a video rant within an hour after the pageant bullying her as to what he thinks she should believe about sexual perverts like himself. In the words of my lovely wife, "He's a disgusting pig of a human being. It's like he enjoys wallowing in his own filth." Judging from what I have seen on his website, that is true.

But seriously. Talk about hypocrisy. This girl is being attacked because she holds the same opinion about marriage as Lord Obama, but she is subjected to crude, sexual ridicule by barking mad liberals? Who really is the hypocrite here? If she had been asked about abortion and she came out as a pro-death advocate for the murder of babies in the womb she would had been lauded as a brave hero and trotted out on The View and Oprah.

It truly is sick times we are living in when a small minority of people, only identified by their deviant behavior, can act as thought police and control discourse in our country. All those goofy futuristic movies like The Handmaid's Tale or Escape from LA in which a religious right, totalitarian government rules the world with an iron hand are utterly fraudulent. It is the left we should truly fear. They are crazy enough to enact their ideas on our population and eliminate anyone who stands against them.

However, on the other hand, I find it equally troubling how this 21 year old beauty pageant contestant has been turned into this mascot advocate for evangelical Christians families just because she made a 20 second comment supporting marriage being only between a man and a woman. She is being likened to Esther.

Huh? She's like Esther? You mean like in the Bible? What on earth?

First of all, I don't get the cultural fascination with beauty pageants. Other than watching half naked women glide across a stage, I have never understood the interest anyone has in them. Even back when I was a hot blooded teenager who was eager to catch any glimpse of half naked women gliding across stages, I thought the participants were narcissistic nit wits.

Oh, I'm sure there is some professor of western history at BIOLA who could go on Hugh Hewitt's radio program to explain how "Miss USA" is an important institution stemming from our Christian heritage here in the United States that has elevated women more than any other culture in our world. Are beauty pageants really in desperate need of being redeemed?

Even more weird to me is how Christian conservatives have traditionally pursued beauty pageants. It seems like every time I hear a "Miss America" or a "Miss USA" go on her rounds to speak, she will mention God and her "Christian faith." I guess I am at a loss why a Christian girl would want to pursue a life long career in beauty pageants and modeling when such are oriented towards the flesh and the spiritual darkness of one's soul.

Which brings me to this Carrie gal.

Would evangelicals have wooed her as a Christian "traditional family" advocate if she had not stated her opinion at all about marriage? Let's say she was asked about gay marriage and she stated what she stated in response to Hilton's question. But instead, that bully judge didn't make his video and she was never personally attacked by barking at the moon liberals in the media. In light of her positive comments in favor of biblical marriage, would Focus on the Family have invited her for two days in a row to talk about her faith and commitment to God? A bikini wearing, sexpot Christian girl for Jesus?

And I have to add that I am a bit staggered how evangelicals are straining credulity excusing her bare chested underwear pictures as if it's not her fault. "She was just 17." "They shouldn't have been released." "They are photo shopped by her secular enemies." "It's a despicable smear campaign to discredit her position against gays."

People. She did take those picture even if they were not meant to be released. Granted, some of the more nasty ones floating around the web are probably photo shopped just like the bad ones of Sarah Palin. But are you telling me the original photographer just tricked her into taking off her clothes?

Perhaps one can say she wasn't a Christian then and she regrets this part of her previous unbelieving life (which I have yet to hear her say), but lets shoot straight here (pun slightly intended): If a person were to go to Google and search the image data base for "Carrie Prejean," there are plenty of sexpot pictures of her AFTER she was 17. By the way, that is just four years ago as far as she is concerned, because SHE IS 21! Moreover, those pictures were meant to be released for promotion purposes, which means she did intentionally take them. Again when she was anywhere from 18 to 20 years of age! That is not the height of mature adulthood. To put how young she is in perspective, she was born one year after I graduated high school.

There is a reason why she is being mocked by the world: Christians, particularly women who advocate Christian family values, are suppose to display modest decorum with their dress, not sexual titillation. Why can Perez Hilton and his twisted sycophants get that, but red state evangelicals excuse it away?

In spite of the obvious disconnect that exists with this whole bizarre episode, why will I not be surprised if I see her Thomas Nelson published biography in Wal-Mart next month? I can already see the title: "Standing Strong: How a Modern Esther Risked All for God and Her Family."


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Blogger Trent said...

I agree completely Fred. I really hate having to answer to my liberal friends for the hypocrisy they accurately in the christian media in regard to Carrie Prejean.

10:10 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Hayden said...


I preached a sermon two weeks ago called 'Relevant or Reverent?' and used her as an example of the Christian culture's infatuation with relevance. (www.firstbaptistmicanopy.com)I agree wholeheartedly!!!

PS I was surprised that one blogger who is apt to make mountains out of molehills was defending this young ladies actions. He is willing to beat up on Driscoll but not look at this situation with the same standard??? I don't get it!

10:53 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Truth Unites... and Divides said...

While you're conflicted about the situation, I'm rather sympathetic towards Carrie.

She's getting attacked by leftist liberals and she's getting attacked by angry Christians. She's getting attacked from both sides.

Why can't folks just extend mercy, forgiveness, and grace?

11:11 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

That is one of the reasons why I say I am staggered by those who rush to her defense and excuse away her sexual pictures.

I can only hope she does repent of this career choice and move on to something more wholesome for a Christian young lady. Motherhood would be the preferred choice.

11:12 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I am happy to extend grace, forgiveness, and mercy toward her. However, I am also just as equally concerned for her sanctification.

Let's keep in mind too that she is 21. That is barely out of her teen years. She needs some biblical direction in all this, not people willing to justify her sexually charged images available on Google.


11:16 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Greg said...

I have to agree with Hayden, Christians are so eager to engage the culture that they just meld right into it and bring reproach upon the gospel.

In this instance, someone took a stand for marriage. Great. There were much better ways to respond to gay critics than touting her as a shining paragon of Christianity.

11:26 AM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

This was my thinking a few days ago at Campi's blog.

"At the very least, we must not be so rigid, strict, confident, and dare I say, arrogant in our condemnations of Prejean for lacking in so-called "modesty" because she wears a two-piece bikini." -richardabanes

I had a guy I know say, "She is hot!", when he talked about her in the swimsuit.

I think the swimsuit is immodest. But at the same time I love to go to the pool, and beach.

I think she is my sister in Christ, and so I appreciate her. May the Lord bless her, and help her grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Good post, and good discussion on what the Scriptures say concerning clothing.
Clothes do matter to God.

And it's not so much the clothes, but why we are wearing what we are wearing, methinks.

Hearing her on Dobson helped to change my thinking a tad. Actually, I turned Dr. Dobson off, because he was too sugary, or whatever. He went on and on about Esther and all that. She seemed genuinely humble about being referred to Estehr though. But who knows.
And now reading your blog helps a bit as well.
Thanks for sharing your heart.

The one problem, and maybe I need to learn more about this, is her bosom thing. Not sure exactly how to word it.

Steve has a couple good posts I thought. He has changed a bit ever since his relationship with Driscoll has been reconciled, or healed I guess.

12:10 PM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger Truth Unites... and Divides said...

Hi Fred,

You probably aren't a fan of Ann Coulter, but her commentary on the Carrie Prejean matter made me chuckle.

See it here.

8:46 PM, May 13, 2009  
Blogger fredsgirl said...

I just had to add my two cents from a woman's perspective. At first, I was quick to support her b/c of her being bullied and not too many gals would sacrifice the crown, have the courage to stand up face-to-face with someone she knew disagreed with her, & verbally assert what is right. However, I am disheartened she is standing on "her faith" as grounds for this "journey." I'd rather her be a secular conservative!

Young girls are watching her, specifically young Christian girls. Does she think that her actions display the Holiness of Christ, an example of Christan modesty, and application of 1 Peter 3? Also, what about causing your brother to stumble? Does she think her pictures and actions on stage are wholesome and could be placed before the eyes of Christian men and boys?

Unfortunately, her hypocrisy is NOT helping the cause for Christ. I am praying for both her and Perez - that they both would be brought under the truth/conviction of God's Word. I am NOT saying she is not a believer, but I am saying she is NOT a good testimony for Christ nor should she become an icon in the Body of Christ to emmulate...

10:26 AM, May 14, 2009  
Blogger CH said...


You NAILED it! Nicely done.

11:06 AM, May 14, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

All this post and responses leaves me with is -- Christians are usually mean-spirited. As much as you would all like to think that being gay is simply a rebellious choice the fact is that it's much more complicated than that. Fred, your statement that they are only defined by "deviant behavior" shows your complete lack of understanding and ignorance on the subject. I will be gay until the day I die - regardless of if I ever have sex or not. I'm not saying it's RIGHT (or wrong) but what I'm saying is that as long as Christians treat it so flippantly the more they will be viewed as ignorant and bigoted.
If Christians REALLY wanted to change gay people - they would show them God's love. I have come to believe that you can't change your basic sexual orientation - However, if change is possible, I think it would only be able to come about from the love of Jesus Christ. Once they have Jesus' love, then that relationship will lead them in how to handle their orientation. But how will they find that love? Certainly not from 98% of the Christians around.
Just my opinion and reaction to the post - not claiming it is Gods.

I wonder if you throw around calling people with a weight problem, "gluttons and temple-desecrators" or those who have been divorced and remarried, "adulterers and fornicators" or those who are a little too concerned with how many things they have "Idolaters". Do you call them out as easily as you do the gay "perverts?" If the church excluded all of the people who habitually did those things -- it would be an awfully small building. Gays just make an easier target. Heck, most of the world already hates them without the religion, so you've already got a good start.

7:10 PM, May 16, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

Hey tdw,

What do think about what the Holy Bible teaches? Is that important to you? And do you believe that the Bible is God's truth to us sinners here on earth, especially to us, those who are His Church?

4:10 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger DJP said...

Well, one difference is that according to the Bible divorce is not always adultery, and no verse provides a maximum body-fat index.

But homosexuality is a specific activity which the Bible says it is always wrong, under all circumstances.

Does showing Jesus' love require that we trash what the Bible says... just like Jesus did... never?

5:05 PM, May 17, 2009  
OpenID pt90048 said...

I said divorced and remarried - not just divorced.
I know a glutton when I see one.
Again - I'm not saying being gay is "right" or wrong. I am saying that it is more complex than simply behavior.
Does showing Jesus' love mean that you have to refer to people in negative, demeaning and diminishing terms?

5:21 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

I typed a response - but this blogger thing is frustrating and it got lost. I appreciate the questions. I went to the college where Fred did - eons ago - lest you think I'm just some random gay activist responder. :)
I grew up in Church, accepted Christ at 13 - have done missions, ministries, bible studies, etc my whole life. I completely understand that many conservative Christians think that it's impossible for me to have a growing and vital relationship to Jesus. Quite frankly, I'm just as judgmental of their legalism and seeming "worship" of a book rather than a living God. So, I'm not convinced they have that relationship either. :) We all have that weakness of judging each other. That said, to answer your question - the Bible is the most important and influential book in my life. Obviously I have a completely different interpretation of it and its role in the life of a follower of Christ. We'll probably have to agree to disagree and each of us just work toward understanding and keep our hearts open to God's direction as we navigate (and I mean me too). When God leads me in a different direction, I will follow.
My point is mainly the tone -- the kind of language and lack of understanding Fred used in the post - and I respect Fred as an intellectual and a sincere person - however, I felt the language wasn't very Christ-like - in my opinion.
I don't ask Christians to accept me being gay. I do ask that they be civil - that they treat me equally - and that follow Christ's example. Too much? Maybe. :)

5:40 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

"..the Bible is the most important and influential book in my life."

The Bible to me is God's Word, the truth. It is my all sufficient final authority.

So we don't have the common ground we need here.

I will say that I believe when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, and called them sons of the devil, and snakes, that He also loved them.

Jesus' disciples said to Him, "Lord, You have offended the rulers of Israel."

I say all this to say, there's a fine line when we speak the truth in love. Sometimes we will be on the side of a bit too much truth, and other times a bit too much love.
But, we will never be able to speak the truth in love as Christ did.

I'm willing to accept that i may not have enough compassion at times. And I may not be bold enough at times.

But the Bible says what it says, and it's God saying what He says.

If God were to appear to you and me right now and speak to us, His words would not have any more authority than the Bible.
So, Romans 1 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 are the truth to us, and we need to deal with the Lord's truth, not our own understanding.

Hope that helps.

5:59 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

Yes, you are correct in saying that we lack a certain amount of common ground - probably so much for you that real communication isn't too possible.

But what if God appeared to you and said something that contradicted your understanding of the Bible - yet you felt certain that it was God? Yes - I know that in your belief that would be impossible - because it seems you think your understanding of the Bible is complete. To me, that's just the arrogance of mankind. You seem to think God is a book. God is limited to a two thousand year old documentation of certain aspects of God. If that's how you see it - okay. I get it. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. However - and this is back to the "gay marriage/rights" thing - you are asking me to live by your interpretation of God in a secular society. Sorry, I'd rather not. On this particular issue, you are on the losing side of history. I understand you holding fast to your beliefs for you and even your family (though Lord help your kids if one of them is gay) - but you have the right to run your life and family how you see fit. But in a secular nation - you don't have the right to limit my participation in a civil institution. In my opinion. :)

6:14 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I am preparing a response for my friend, that if I remember correctly, was my roommate for about a month right after I had graduated college and was readying to come to California for seminary. I plan to post it tomorrow. I am even putting aside my eschatology prep for my next article to do so.

I think he raises some important points as to how Christians are to engage our culture in a godly fashion and are worth a post all to their own.

6:55 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

"You seem to think God is a book."

No. Jesus is my Savior and God. I worship Him, and His word is from His heart.
He did give us the Bible as a treasure of His love to us, His beloved.

There are so many things I could address in this comment of yours. Fred is going to post something on this issue, and I look forward to hearing his wisdom.

8:24 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

And I completely understand that you probably don't believe that I can worship Jesus as well - without having the same idea of the Bible as you do on homosexuality or bigger issues. I could probably find a dozen different denominations or sects who think you aren't correct enough to be a "real" Christian either. Just as your faith isn't dependent on their approval, mine isn't on yours. That's as it should be I guess. I appreciate the civility in your responses even though chances are we won't ever agree too much.

8:42 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

Sorry to commandeer your post. At first I wasn’t going to respond – but then figured – heck, if it’s up online that’s what it’s there for. My first post was a little in the moment, so I may have been too… blunt – but I felt strongly about your post.
I appreciate that you are taking the time to address the issues. Don’t feel like you have to on account of me – but I figure that’s part of what you enjoy about doing a blog, etc. By the way – I only very vaguely remember you staying at our place after you graduated. Was that when I was rooming with Todd and Kevin at the house on Brazos? I had completely forgotten it until you mentioned that. We are old. : )

Here’s my thing. I think too often Christians are in an isolated world with no interaction with gay people – and vice versa. Both groups forget that the other people are human, flawed, yet sincere in their convictions. The only Christians that gay people see are Fred Phelps, Tony Perkins, and Ann Coulter (though, I doubt even most Christians would claim Ann). The only gay people that Christians see are the ones in leather at gay pride or the angry talking heads on newstalk shows. Most gay people are just people – trying to live their lives and do the best they can. Most Christians are just people doing the same. I have lived in both those worlds so I am sympathetic to both sides. But the truth is that I hold Christians to a higher standard – they are the ones who supposedly have experienced the all-encompassing love of Christ for Heaven’s sake! I expect them to be more civil, more kind, more Christ-like. That doesn’t mean that I expect them to cave on their beliefs – just to not indulge the sensational or negative.

I spent 15 years in ex-gay ministries of some sort – doing my best to not be gay. Obviously I have my own baggage. My frustration is this asinine, ignorant assertion on the part of most Christians that being gay is simply a behavior that you just stop doing – then you aren’t gay anymore! Pretty simple. NOT. The behavior is only one part. There’s the issue of lust, controlling thoughts and the mind, there’s the shame of even having the thoughts in our society. Your typical friend finds out you are attracted to guys – he doesn’t care that you have not acted on that attraction – you’re just a fag – even if you have never had sex. Being attracted to the same sex is a complex issue. That’s all I’m saying. And believe it or not – it’s not even mostly about sex – though Christians can’t often get their minds out of the gutter enough to realize that. If I see a man and a woman holding hands I don’t immediately picture them in orgasmic ecstasy. Yet it is impossible for a Christian to hear a person say the word gay, let alone see them holding hands – without immediately picturing “the deed.” What’s that all about? I don’t expect people to come to some sudden realization that – oh, it’s not wrong. Just don’t trivialize it. Gay people don’t “CHOOSE” to be gay. They may CHOOSE to accept that part of them or they may CHOOSE to modify their behavior and not act out on the feelings they have. But there is no choice in being gay. If you are gay, you are – whether you ever have sex or not. Is it genetic? environmental? I don’t know. I suspect it is a combination of both. One thing it is not is simple.

Obviously you and most of those that will read this blog don’t believe someone can be gay and Christian. I get that. That’s okay. I am okay with people thinking that I’m not a Christian because of that. My relationship with Christ is not dependent on that validation. So – again – I’m not saying all this to try to convince anyone that being gay is “okay” even though I believe that certainly is true. I’m saying it to increase the exposure and the dialogue. Christians need to realize that gay people are just like them in most ways (except the gay thing). They aren’t all hedonists, atheists and child molesters. If Christians continue to act like that’s all we are, then yes – the world more and more will see Christians as ignorant, as bigoted, and as out of touch. And rightly so. And hey, maybe you’re cool with that – in the world, not of the world – and all that.
The difference right now is that most of us gay folks are tired of taking it all. We are no longer content to be silent and ashamed and let the untruths and stereotypes that Christians put out there go unchallenged. You have every right to your beliefs, but I will challenge them every chance I get. I am a person who is trying his best to live a life where I treat people with kindness, compassion and understanding. I am trying to make myself a better person and be closer to God. I get that most Christians don’t understand me. I get that they don’t agree. I get that they are afraid that if being gay is okay, then they worry that their kids will think it’s okay and just be gay. I get where they are coming from. Just because I can see their perspective doesn't mean I think they are right. Just like spending more time trying to see a gay person's perspective doesn't mean Christians will think we are right.

Jeesh – that all sounds so serious. Sorry! I don’t mean it to be so much so. You hit me on a Sunday night when I don’t have a lot going on. School is out for the summer and I have nowhere to be in the morning. : ) Be well – and I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Dan

9:01 PM, May 17, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Don't worry about commandeering the blog. You are well spoken, articulate, and passionate about your situation.


8:12 AM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

"I could probably find a dozen different denominations or sects who think you aren't correct enough to be a "real" Christian either."

I believe the Scriptures are self evident that they are God's truth. Jesus came and bore witness to the truth. And He died on a Cross for the sins of His people. There is forgiveness in no one else. he also rose from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, where He reigns with all authroity and power.

The Scriptures are clear that homosexual behavior is condemened by God. I have already mentioned a couple passages that teach us this truth.
In fact all fornication is condemned by God.

Jesus died for our sin, those who come to Him in faith, and who repent of their sin, and turn from themselves to Christ.

He sends us the Holy Spirit to abide with us, those who trtust in Christ, who is the gospel.

Have you truated Christ, and repented, and turned from yourself?

I also know the the truth of Scripture teaches that even though we are no longer the sinner we once were, when we are regenerated, we still will struggle with sin in this cursed and dark age.

As Luther said, we still have a "remnant" of sin within us, and so we can not do the things we long to.

Have you been born again Dan? If so about when did you become born again? If you don't mind me asking.

Unless a man is born again, he can not even see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3).

11:19 AM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger DJP said...

pt90048 — you realize you didn't actually deal with anything I said?

12:35 PM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

DJP - I went back and read what you wrote and what I said back. No I don't realize that I didn't deal with anything you said. Not sure what you mean.

donsands - My point is - your view of the Bible and mine are different. You can SAY all that stuff all day long and it doesn't mean I accept it as truth. Yes, I know that you believe "truth" is "truth" and you believe that the words of the Bible are not up for debate/discussion, etc - and to you they are very clear (in this English translation of other cultures/languages, etc) However, there are thousands of Christians who debate the meaning and interpretation of the Bible. I understand that you have settled it all in your mind. However, I have not. There are also thousands of Christians who don't believe that the Bible condemns homosexual behavior - these are people who also don't accept it on the same authority that you do - and use more context/social prejudices/etc when looking at the Bible - not just homosexuality, but women in the church, slavery, etc. I'm not here to debate their view or yours. I responded because I was ticked at the tone of the post. :) I'll never change your mind about the Bible and I don't think you'll ever change mine. But those different views exist. And again - I could probably find plenty who wouldn't consider your life and interpretation to not fit their criteria of a "christian."

As to your question about me. - you can see the above post - I accepted Christ at 13. I don't have any doubt that it was a real experience and genuine. I have no idea if you believe in "once saved, always saved" - I come from a Baptist background - and they do. I personally don't doubt my acceptance of Jesus. However, I do understand that according to your rules and interpretation, that my experience probably doesn't fit your criteria to make me "Christian." And I imagine that your response to that might be "but they aren't my criteria, they are God's! After all he laid it out clearly in the Bible!" - (See my above response about your interpretation of the Bible) :)

An example of what isn't as clear... You say that all fornication is condemned by God. Well, for the sake of argument, then I ask - well, what exactly is fornication? Is it kissing? Is it french kissing? Is it a hand on the genital area? What about under the blouse, but over the bra? Is it penetration? What about if people remain fully clothed yet gratify themselves? My point is this - the Bible doesn't spell everything out in the definition of fornication. If it only means "sex", then does that mean anything that isn't "sex" is permissible? What constitutes "sex"? At exactly what point am I fornicating when I am with a girl? All these things are not spelled out in the Bible. Yet fornication is condemned - hmmm. Well, to some Christians kissing a woman who isn't your wife is fornicating.

My point being - I don't subscribe to a simplistic view of the Bible. And, in my opinion - the "well God says it's so" is a simplistic examination of a complex document. Again though, I'm not asking anyone to take my view. Whatever gets you through the day, then do it.

Just this morning I went to the gym. As I walked around the track, I listened to music and praised God. I had to keep myself from raising my hands and looking like some crazed fanatic. :)
I felt overwhelming joy and gratitude for my life, His love and this experience. To me - my relationship with God is real, daily and dynamic. That's all I can say.

PS - I have been mulling over that I may not even call myself a Christian any longer. I am a follower of Christ, definitely. I'm worried that "Christians" have ruined the brand. :)

2:22 PM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

"then I ask - well, what exactly is fornication?"
God made us male and female to marry, and become one, a husband and a wife.

Pornography and fornication go together. Sexual immorality is rampant, and people need to repent.

Well, you don't want to take the Bible seriously. There are deep doctrines of course, but for the most part, the truth of God's Word is pure and simple.

Jesus said, "Repent." Jesus said, "If you eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out, and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, for it is better to have one eye and enter eternal life then have both eyes and be thrown into hell.

Seems like our lord is very serious.
In fact He was so serious about sin that he freely gave Himself for the Father, who made Him to be sin for us.

What an amazing Savior!

He changes our hearts, and gives us the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth, which is found in the Holy Scriptures. He teaches us to love Christ first, and also love our neighbor, and even our enemy. He empowers us to repent and live by faith in His grace, power, and love.

The Bible is the foundation of all Christians. If one can disregard the Bible, then that same person has not the Holy Spirit of God.

I pray you would be granted a hunger for God's Word, for Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

4:55 PM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger tdw2008 said...

Well - obviously any kind of debate is going nowhere. I wish you the best. Again - my whole point in responding here was not to debate the authority of Scripture, but to ask for a more respectful and loving attitude toward gay people. "Speaking the truth in love" shouldn't leave out the love part. :)

8:45 PM, May 18, 2009  
Blogger donsands said...

"Speaking the truth in love" shouldn't leave out the love part. :)

Amen. But the truth can be very painful even when spoken in love and compassion.

Nice to have dialoged with you.

6:10 AM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Just so that everyone knows, I did address some of dan's comments HERE. Also, take not of Jay's comments under that post.


5:52 AM, May 21, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I mean take "note,"
I am such a four year old when it comes to spelling.

5:53 AM, May 21, 2009  

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