Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Tuesday, December 23, 2008

Rick Warren, Compromiser?

Distinguishing between God and mammon...

According to Little Green Footballs, the websites affiliated with Rick Warren and Saddleback church are being edited for content. What is being removed?

All content addressing the subjects of creationism and homosexuality.

Homosexuality I guess I can understand seeing that he has come under fire from the crazies in the pro-gay lobby. But creationism? The bigoted atheists and anti-creationist are gleefully blogging about it in their corners of the web.

Assuming such removal of content is true, and there isn't a normal explanation for reviewing and editing the web content, something all organizations both secular and religious who maintain a website do now and again, I would find it a bit troubling.

It demonstrates the danger the Christian faces if and when he or she dares to venture into the secular realm of politics at a significant level and wants to be loved by the masses. The masses, however, hate biblical truth and if the person stands for biblical truth in what appears to be an unyielding way, then the masses take that to be the sign of a person who is "narrow-minded" and "intolerant" and all those other yucky P.C. terms people never want applied to them. A person is no longer cool. Right now, homosexuality is thought to be cool by secular masses. Hence, to say anything too incendiary against homosexuals is off putting with the masses. You're perceived as a Fred Phelp's, God Hates Fags kind of person.

There is a deeper principle with Jesus' words in Matthew 6:24, "You cannot serve two masters..." More than the love of money is at stake. In this case, the convictions of the Christian faith and the adulation of the world.

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Blogger donsands said...

"You're perceived as a Fred Phelp's, God Hates Fags kind of person."

Funny that's what hit me, as well as so=called pastors like Brian McLaren, who is alright with two men pastors being a couple pastoring a church.

I suppose we will always have to deal with the extremes, and somehow speak the truth in love, and also separate ourselves from Phelps. And no less separate ourselves from McLaren, IMHO.

Sad about Rick. I was hoping in his prayer for Obama he might include repentance from fornication, which includes homosexual sin. And that the Church in America would, instead of pursuing "the pursuit of happiness", would pursue "the pursuit of holiness".

9:53 AM, December 23, 2008  
Blogger Daniel said...

I hope it is just a hackers removing content... but my optimism isn't all that high.

1:21 PM, December 23, 2008  
Blogger Darrin said...

Hey Fred-

Your comment reminds me of an Andrew Peterson song, Come Lord Jesus. Ever heard it? Here is the first verse:

Tonight in the line of the merchandise store
While they were packing up my bags
I saw the pictures of the prophets of the picket signs
Screaming, 'God hates fags'

And it feels like the church isn't anything more
Then the second coming of the Pharisees
Scrubbing each other 'til their tombs are white
They chisel epitaphs of piety

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

6:21 PM, December 23, 2008  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Hey Darrin,
Maybe I am a bit dense. Are you agreeing with my comments or disagreeing that I am being too harsh on Rick?

Just curious.

7:51 PM, December 23, 2008  
Blogger Kim said...

Count me as dense, too. I don't understand Darrin's comment.

5:04 AM, December 24, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...

I watched Rick make a speech to Moslems, and he was loving and inviting.

He simply wants to make everything civil, with Obama, Moslems, gays, and everybody really. Just one big happy family, and as we walk hand in hand, then maybe Jesus will work His way into their lives, sort secretly I guess.

I just don't get Rick. He wants to get togther, and love everyone, and have a lot of common ground where we can love each other, and keep the one thing on the side that we don't have in common, Christ, the King of kings.

5:24 AM, December 24, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...

I'm trying to figure out what a Baptist Pastor like Rick Warren is doing keynoting a Muslim fundraiser.

Although I am a conservative, Bible believing gay Christian, I agree with you on many Biblical issues, Creationism for instance.

I'm as much disliked in the gay community for being a conservative Christian as I apparently am in your community for being a gay Christian.

Rick Brentlinger

10:51 PM, December 27, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...

Hey Rick, how do you interpret this Holy Scripture: "

"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted." 1 Tim 1:8-11

I visited your site, and I would have commented there but I couldn't.

Your teaching on repentance is watered down. Sure we are to change our mind, and only God can do this BTW. But we need turn from our sin as well. And this includes fornication.

12:04 PM, December 28, 2008  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

The typical gay response is to say this passage is condemning the homosexual prostitution of children or male/child sex. Of course, that begs the question: If one is a homosexual by nature and desire, in that a man is sexual attracted to another man, why then, when an adult male says his attraction to 13 year old boys is his natural desire just like the two adult homosexuals, is his desire sinful? If it is because the child can't be consensual, what happens if the teenage boy is consensual? Is it consent that makes it not sinful?

I personally would like Rick to articulate his theology of sexual relations and marriage from a biblical foundation. This is something I have never found in any homosexual polemics attempting to make the Bible teach that homosexual sex is okay in a committed gay relationship. Their writings tend to be reactionary, offering alternative interpretations of what are clearly condemnations of homosexual relationships and behavior.

6:32 PM, December 28, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...

Thanks Fred.

7:44 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...


The key point is, the law is good, "if a man use it lawfully." The law, as used by so many today, is not being used lawfully.

Using the law lawfully, according to Paul, means viewing the law as our schoolmaster, to bring us unto Christ. Yet as Paul oh so carefully points out, "after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:25

Some expositors, like John Gill, distinguish between the ceremonial law and the moral law, contending the ceremonial law is now disannulled but the moral law is still applicable and ought be followed by Christians.

This view is fairly common in Reformed circles and almost entirely misses the point Paul is making.

According to the scripture you inquired about, the law is NOT made for a righteous man.

The law serves its function when it reveals our lost condition and causes us to flee to Christ for refuge. Once we've trusted Christ and are saved, we are not under the law.

If by referencing I Timothy 1:8-11, you were really asking the meaning of arsenokoitai, I have two pages on my website devoted to that.

On one of those pages, I list EVERY known use of the arsenokoit stem from Paul's first usage in AD 58 and for 600 years after Paul.


You may Comment on my website at this Link:


Rick Brentlinger

8:57 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...

Fred wrote:

"I personally would like Rick to articulate his theology of sexual relations and marriage from a biblical foundation."

I deal with that on this page of my website:


plus many Links on this page:


The "love" of the anti-gay crowd is not mediated through the prism of Matthew 7:12 or Matthew 22:36-40. Anti-gay christians would never be satisfied to be treated the way they treat gays and lesbians.

“And as you would like and desire that men would do to you, do exactly so to them.” -The Amplified Bible, Luke 6:31

The God-given Need for Companionship

From the beginning God affirmed it is not good for the man to be alone, Genesis 2:18. The intimate companionship of God Himself, with Adam in the Garden of Eden, was not enough for Adam. God affirmed this fact and intentionally created Eve to meet Adam’s need.

Marriage rights should include gays and lesbians.

We affirm that if a perfect man, Adam, without a sin nature and living in an unfallen world, needed more than the companionship of God Himself to meet his intimacy needs, it is reasonable to conclude that gays and lesbians need a similar kind of holy union which God provided for the original couple, to meet our intimacy needs.

We affirm that the viewpoint of many Christians, that all gays and lesbians must live celibate lives, never having their deepest intimacy needs met, constitutes a cruel refusal to obey the explicit command of Jesus in Matthew 7:12:

“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”

We further affirm that Biblical principle and Christian charity require an empathetic response to the God-created intimacy needs of gay and lesbian Christians. Our mission is to communicate this truth to the body of Christ.

We also affirm that Jesus made a clear and categorical distinction between most people and eunuchs, the first class of which, according to Jesus, cannot participate in the Adam and Eve marriage paradigm, Matthew 19:11,12. Our mission is to make the body of Christ aware of this truth.

Jesus precisely differented between born eunuchs, who never made a personal decision to be eunuchs and metaphysical eunuchs who do make a personal decision to be celibate, Matthew 19:12.

We affirm and honor marriage, Hebrews 13:4, as the norm for most people. Yet we note that Jesus affirmed that everyone cannot participate in the Adam and Eve marriage paradigm, Matthew 19:11,12.

God our heavenly Father recognized a deeply felt need for companionship and belonging as the common experience of humanity, Genesis 2:18, Psalm 68:4–6; James 1:27, I Corinthians 7:1-9.

We affirm the wisdom of preaching abstinence from sexual intimacy to heterosexuals and homosexuals, until they are united in heterosexual marriage or homosexual partnership. Abstaining from sexual intimacy in preparation for lifelong commitment to each other surely reflects clear Biblical teaching about marriage and partnership, I Corinthians 7:2-5, I Thessalonians 4:3-7. The mission of all authentic Christians is to live lives pleasing to God.

Judge Righteous Judgment

The Church does not condemn all heterosexual behaviour by association on the basis that some heterosexuals commit the sins of adultery, fornication, lust and rape.

We affirm therefore that basic decency, common honesty and elementary logic require that gays and lesbians receive the same thoughtful consideration. That some homosexuals commit the sins of adultery, fornication, lust and rape does not warrant the conclusion that all gays and lesbians deserve unqualified condemnation. Our mission is to make all Christians aware of this basic truth.

Rick Brentlinger

9:17 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Fred Butler said...


Your study on arsenokoites merely takes in secular Greek sources and those who comment upon the term in their writings who were both secular and religious. You have to define your word with in the whole of biblical theology as detailed in scripture.

Next, many of your "experts" (and this is problematic for many of your articles and those of gay revisionists), is that they are liberals who do not in any way share your alleged evangelical view of scripture, ie, the affirmation of inerrancy and inspiration. Even Rob Gagnon is a higher critic.

Third, none of your "studies" on your site deal with the fact that arsenokoites comes from the LXX translation of Leviticus 18 and 20 where it is used to describe a male lying with a male, and Paul, with his epistles to the gentiles, is using a compound word to describe homosexual intercourse. White and Niell document this usage, as does Greg Bahnsen in his book back in the 80s, and I have read Gagnon on this as well.

Then lastly, and maybe this is forth coming, I want to see a positive defense of human sexuality and marriage from your position as defined by scripture, and scripture only presents God honoring marriage and sexual expression as being exclusively defined within the boundaries of one man and one woman relationship.

9:33 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Thanks for that last response Rick. There are lots of problems which I will document in a forth coming post.

9:34 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...


I give a detailed analysis of arsenokoites in my 400 page book


and a fairly detailed analysis on this page which you apparently missed.


I deal with the historical meaning of the arsenokoit stem and point out that Paul probably had Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 in mind when he penned 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 and may have coined the arsenokoit stem.

The problem you face in attempting to define arsenokoitai as a general reference to homosexuality is that no ancient writer ever used the word with that meaning.

Conservative or liberal, sacred or secular, NO writer in ancient times ever used the arsenokoit stem with the meaning you give it.

If you disagree with my contention, you are free to present ancient usages which contradict my statement.

Gagnon, Bahnsen, White and Niell - none of them present any ancient uses of the arsenokoit stem which use the word with the meaning you give it.

White and Niell quote John Chrysostom blasting what they refer to as homosexuality yet even Chrysostom never used the arsenokoit stem with the meaning you give it.

I request the courtesy of an answer to this question:

If the arsenokoit stem really did carry the meaning you assign it, why did no ancient preacher ever use the word with that meaning when preaching against "homosexuals?"

As for your mistaken belief that marriage is "exclusively defined within the boundaries of one man and one woman relationship" your statement is not supported in scripture.

You infer your viewpoint (read your viewpoint into scripture) and then teach your inference as if your inference is Holy Writ.

We both know that God honored polygynous marriages and incestuous marriages in scripture - the children of Adam and Eve or the example of Abraham and Sarah (for incestuous marriage) and Abraham and Sarah or Jacob, Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah (for polygynous marriage).

Therefore marriage never has been EXCLUSIVELY a one man and one woman relationship.

Polygyny and incestuous marriage are ancient analogs for modern gay marriage.

If you insist on maintaining your false premise about marriage being EXCLUSIVELY a one man, one woman relationship, as you MUST do to hold your unscriptural anti-gay position, every conclusion you draw based on your false premise will necessarily be false.

Rick Brentlinger

10:54 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...


So the law brings the homosexual to Christ. And now the homosexual is no longer under the law that brought him to Christ, to keep it?

If that's the case, how about the murderer, who comes to Christ? Can he now murder still, and be a church memeber?

And also how do you interpret Romans 1: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,...although they knew God, they did not honor him as God,...For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. ...and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men." (verses 18,21,26-27)

11:46 AM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...


The Christian is not under the law as a means of justification because Jesus perfectly kept the law on our behalf.

Saved homosexuals are justified by Christ, not by works of the law.

Saved murderers are justified by Christ, not by works of the law.

The salient question to ask is:

Are Christians under the law?

Here is the Biblical answer.

1. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14.

2. Christians are ”dead to the law." Romans 7:4.

3. "If ye be led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Galatians 5:18.

4. Christians are "delivered from the law." Romans 7:6.

5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster “ [the law]. Galatians 3:24-25.

6. For Christians, the Law is "that which is done away." II Corinthians 3:11.

7. For Christians, the Law is "that which is abolished." II Corinthians 3:13.

8. For Christians, Jesus, on the Cross, was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us." Colossians 2:14.

9. For Christians, the Law is taken "out of the way" and nailed "to his cross." Colossians 2:14.

Concerning Romans 1, see my comments beginning at this page and the associated Links:


Rick Brentlinger

12:39 PM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...

"The salient question to ask is:"

Can a murderer keep on murdering? Can a liar keep on lying? Can we keep on sinning and being lawless after we are new creations in Christ?

For with the inner man I love the law, but in my flesh I fight against it.

We are not under the law as you say. I agree wholeheartedly. The law says for two men to have sex is a sin. The law brings us to Christ, who can forgive us our sin, and grant us repentance, so we can "go and sin no more." Unless something worse happen to us.

2:47 PM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Rick Brentlinger said...


A murderer should NOT keep on murdering but a murderer is not born a murderer.

Comparing innate homosexuals to murderers is a transparent attempt to win the argument using guilt by association.

Salvation does not alter sexual orientation any more than it changes right or left handedness, personality, mathmatical ability or the apparent heterosexual evangelical predisposition to divorce and remarry in spite of what scripture says about that.

Rick Brentlinger

5:09 PM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

What about being uncontrollably angry, Rick? Is it okay for a man who claims he is Irish, or has always been a hothead, to continue such pugnacious behavior when he is saved? Believe me, I have run into many people over the years who justify their angry tempers by arguing that is just they way they are.

6:00 PM, December 29, 2008  
Blogger donsands said...

"Salvation does not alter sexual orientation"

True. A man who is saved is a man. A woman is saved by God's grace is still a woman.

I have a good friend who has repented of his homosexual life style and is serving the Lord admittedly so. He has confided in me about the struggle, but the Holy Spirit gives him strength to live a life of righteousness and godliness, and he flees fornication.
If this brother in Christ fell into sin, then he would have to ask the Lord to help him repent, and be restored. And he would be grieved with godly grief, not worldly grief, which leads to death (2 Cor. 7).

We all sin, even believers. But the born again spirit within the child of Christ is a new creation, and all things have become new. Yet we still live in this cesspool of a world, the devil still roams about to devour, (though on a chain), and worst of all we are still in this body of death, our flesh. There remains a remnant of sin in us, though the great power sin used to have on us is broken.

The genuine Christian now hates sin, which includes fornication. And hates that he loves sin at times.

One day we shall all be with Christ in heaven, and with our new glorified bodies in the New earth, and then all things will be totally righteous, and no more sin!

6:29 PM, December 29, 2008  

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