Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Sunday, January 07, 2007

Answers that KJV onlyists are afraid you will provide (pt 3)

I have been providing responses to the KJV onlyist challenge: 33 questions that modern Bible version advocates are afraid they will be asked.

See parts one and two

This concludes my responses. I did send an email to the website owner who posted these questions, and he did leave a couple of comments, but he doesn't appear as though he is willing to be challenged. Perhaps my last few responses will draw him into a discussion.

22. Do you know - for a fact - what the requirements of the American Bible society are, for a person to participate as a translator - in a Modern Version?

OK, what exactly are the requirements? I would be curious if our KJV advocate here really knows for himself. I went to the American Bible Society website and hunted all over the place to find an official list, but apparently they have found out that a league of KJV onlyists are out to expose their New Age agenda, because they don't list the requirements for a person to be a translator. I am guessing that either a KJV advocate knows something we MBV folks don't, or he is exaggerating the nature of these so-called requirements.

The next question has 3 or so extra questions woven in to one. I will look at them in turn:

23. Do you know - for a fact - what the requirements of the German Bible Society are, for a person to participate as a translator - in a Modern Version?

I figure that if our KJV onlyists can't produce a "requirement list" for the American version, he is going to be even more hard pressed to find one for the German group, it being in a foreign language that I am sure our KJV apologist here doesn't have a clue how to read.

Do you know that the United Bible Societies, the UBS Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament - used in 95% of the seminaries today - is essentially the product of the German Society and that they retain the Copyright on the Nestle-Aland Greek Text?

OK? So what? I am sure our KJV onlyists insists there is some conspiracy to be exposed here, but I have yet to see any serious evidence for one. At least evidence for one that should strike fear in my heart. By the way, most KJV onlyists carry on about how the KJV is a non-copyrighted work, but in reality, Oxford and Cambridge presses hold the copyright on the KJV. See an extended study on the KJV and copyrights.

Do you realize that the Beliefs, Teachings, Ideology and Methods of Translation of the German Bible Society will therefore be evidence on every page of the Greek Text that Modern Versions use (since modern versions rely almost exclusively on the Nestle-Aland bad Greek Text)?

First off, it would be helpful if our MBV accuser provided some documentation, or any evidence for that matter, explaining the "Beliefs, Teachings, Ideology and Methods of Translation" by this black-hooded German Bible Society. All we have from him are baseless accusations. Secondly, how is he defining "bad." I have an idea, but in order from him to establish some credibility for his conspiratorial delusions, I would like to have something more substantial.

His next question, question 24, is fairly lengthy, so I will not quote it in its entirety.

24. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself, if the Germans Bible Society was around in the Time of Hitler, (which it was), and if the German Bible Society operated during the time of Hitler's Third Reich in Germany (which it did), and if it needed a Nazi "certificate of good standing" (which it did), then what would this mean...for your modern Bible Version?

I guess it would mean that anyone who uses a MBV is a goose-stepping, SS, Brown shirt wearing Jew hater. Seems to me that is what he is implying anyways. Again, our author suffers from a lack of substantive footnoting. I would like to see a bit of documentation demonstrating a tight connection between the German Bible Society, the Nazis and my ESV. Furthermore, as the question charges, I want to see where the "Nazis" corrupted the OT. Apparently they did, correct? The older Hebrew texts are still in print. If it is true that Nazis made and approved the OT text from which MBV translated, then our KJV apologist should be able to give us clear examples where the Nazis changed the OT.

Additionally, the charge against the German Bible Society is a tad misinformed, because they did not officially organize until 1948, three years after WWII. There may had been some semi-organized group of Christians around when the Nazi took over Germany, but it is factually mistaken to charge the official German Bible Society with collaborating with Hitler.

Oh, but there is more.

The author goes on in his question to implicate Hebrew scholar, Rudolf Kittel, who published three editions of the Hebrew OT, as being a Nazi anti-Semite and tied to the Nazi party. The problem with this charge is that Rudolf Kittel died in 1929, a few years before the Nazi party came into power. More than likely, our KJV onlyist is confusing Rudolf with his son Gerhard, who is usually the one accused of Nazi collaboration. Gerhard edited the famous Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the NT that is still in use today in many seminaries and is quoted as an authority in defining NT words. Though it is true Gerhard was named as an "official" theologian by the Nazi party and the Nazi's often appealed to some of his works as an excuse for their anti-Semitic eugenic policies, the KJV onlyists who attempt a connection of modern Bible versions to Gerhard Kittel via the Nazi party are straining at some serious gnats. More over, they have to demonstrate where Gerhard's NT dictionary promotes Nazi anti-semitic ideas and where it impacted Bible translations to favor Nazism.

25. IF all of these concerns were valid, legitimate and provable, then do you still think that we should thoughtlessly chose and decide that Modern Versions of the Bible are somehow superior to the Historic Bibles that have been used around the world for thousands of years?

That is a mighty big "IF" and none of the accusations leveled here against MBV have even come close to being established as legitimate. I could ask a similar question of our KJV apologist: IF all of these concerns were shown to be invalid, illegitimate, and out right contrived, then do you think you should apologize for leading young, un-witting Christians astray by confusing them with such baseless accusations?

26. Just how happy do you think that God will be, when you get up to Heaven in a few years, and they you can explain this yourself to HIM???

Well, what about you Mr. KJV only apologist? How happy do you think God will be when everything you wrote here is revealed to be foolish and nothing by wood, hay, and stubble and all of your dishonest misinformation is burned up before the Lord?

27. If you are a Pastor, is it true that you should already have these answers, Is it true that you should already have done this research, Is it True that you should already be ready to give an answer of him that asketh you - of the reason(s) and the hope that you have within you...???

I believe I have demonstrated to my readers, and I will to any congregation God is pleased to send me to pastor, that I have done sufficient research into this area. Moreover, I believe I have shown that the KJV only questions are easily answerable and refutable and when hard pressed with counter questions, the KJV only apologist cannot adequately defend his world view.

28. We can certainly afford to be wrong ! The question is: Before God (and James 3) can you afford for us to be right ???

I am not sure what this question is asking, but lets turn it back on the KJVer. Before God, are you absolutely certain you are right about your history of Bible translations? Are you willing to repent of KJV onlyism if it can be shown to you that the belief is utterly unsupportable?

29. So, to continue...sharing truth here....Would you be surprised to learn that the German Bible Society does not follow Protestant Theology ? Would you be surprised to learn that the German Bible Society despises Martin Luther, His Bible and the Textus Receptus, and instead seems committed to promoting Bible Texts that (a) were rejected by the Christian Church for thousands of Years and (b) that "coincidentally" seem to greatly favor Roman Catholic Theology?

Again, I don't believe you have established your conspiracy about the German Bible Society. But let's say they are all devil worshipers and don't care a lick about Martin Luther and Protestants. With all the mounds of manuscript evidence we have on hand to compare to their work, where exactly did they depart from the Bible? Even more to the point, where exactly does the Received Text maintain orthodoxy where the MBV texts don't? In other words, is there any orthodox Christian doctrine that is ONLY found in the Receive Text? How exactly is their Greek text corrupted from the original? This is what you haven't shown. Like I have said before: heretics don't intentionally corrupt texts as KJV onlyists claim, they have corrupted interpretations that they bring to the text so as to twist the text to fit those interpretations.

30. Would it surprise you to learn that for the Greek New Testament used by the German Bible Society/UBS, that they (UBS) hired the head of Theology of the Roman Catholic Church, the head of the Pontifical Institute in Rome (which trains the best of the Roman Catholic Theologians and Priests)...who is Archbishop Carlo Maria Martini of Milan ? And they hired him to be one of the main overseers of the Greek Text that is being used by almost all Protestant Seminaries in the USA today ? What should we do when we find this out ? Should we ignore it ? Should we pretend this practice does not take place, and maybe it will go away ? Do we keep smiling and say nothing ? Or do we decide to seek Truth, Love God with all of our heart, mind, and strength, and start asking the questions that others have been afraid to ask ? Do we finally decide that we will stand for something, take a risk and ask some very hard questions ???

This has already been mentioned before, but let me ask one more time just in case our KJVer skipped quickly over the question. What do you do when you find out Erasmus, the man who gave us the Received Text, the text KJV onlyists insist is the pure Word of God, was a life long Mary worshiping, Eucharist taking, infused grace believing, celibate priest who never recanted his Catholicism? Do you keep smiling and say nothing? Or will you recognize your hypocrisy of accusing MBV folks of collusion with Catholics even though the very Bible you claim is straight from heaven was edited in its original by a Catholic who didn't care for Protestants? Will you finally decide to stand for the truth and answer some hard questions, even if it leads to abandoning your KJV onlyism and in spite of being named an apostate by Peter Ruckman?

31. Keeping in mind that the corrupt Greek Text of Westcott & Hort are used for a great deal of the UBS/Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament Text, How much research have you personally done on the Occultic Practices of Westcott & Hort, or do you wish instead to email us, and we can share with you some of the details of this, from their own writings ???

I have actually done quite a bit and if you will read my testimonial on leaving KJV onlyism, you will note how it was my research into the lives of Westcott and Hort, sparked by Gail Riplinger's monstrous book, New Age Bible Versions, that placed me on the path of leaving KJV onlyism once and for all. How about you? Have you personally done any research into what Westcott and Hort REALLY believed? Or do you choose to only believe second and third hand misinformation published by KJV apologists who have distorted the lives of these men to the point of out right lying against them? Have yo taken the time to read the research of James May, who has read through nearly all of Dr. Westcott's printed works and has shown that KJV onlyists totally manufacture the bulk of their libelous citations against him?

32.. Would you be surprised to learn that many of the translators of the modern versions of the Bible state in their own writings that they do NOT believe in the literal Bible ? Have you personally done research on this topic yourself ? Have you read 3 books on this specific subject ? Have you even read one?

I want to see some documentation to the first question, and then I want to see him make a direct connection between their so-called unorthodox belief about the Bible and how that belief has corrupted their translation.

As for doing research on this topic: I have read at least 50 books on the subject, many of which are KJV only publication I still own to this day. How's them apples? Additionally, I have read hundreds of web articles from KJV only publications and I participated on at least two KJV only web board discussion groups and interacted personally with KJV onlyists for nearly a year or more until I was dismissed from their groups for being a "troublemaker." I will say that after spending that time with these self-taught experts, maybe except for two or three, none of them had any solid grasp on textual criticism, let alone proper translation technique. A good portion of them were not even familiar with the original biblical languages except for use of a Strong's concordance or a Bible software program. And all of them were prone to fits of conspiratorial nonsense and contrived historical revisionism in order to lend support to their KJV only world view.

Let me ask you: Have you read at least 3 books that critically evaluate the claims set forth by KJV only apologists? How about one? And I mean you truly read it, not thumb through it to find more selective grist for your KJV only mill. I mean truly read it and pondered what the author was saying against KJV onlyism?

33. Don’t feel so good if you have read the "King James Only debate" by James White. Are you even aware of how much re-writing there was, between the First Edition of this book, and all of the Editions that came after ? Have you also gone on the internet to see, learn, read or study the answers that Gail Riplinger gave ? (We are simply trying to help you assess - for yourself - just how thorough and truth-seeking your research, which you have personally done, has been)

OK, so the accusation is that James White, a scholarly critic of KJV onlyism, re-wrote his book, The King James Only Controversy, several times thus producing several editions. The implication of this question is that James has been deceptive about his multiple editions and that they were necessary because he had so much difficulty dealing with KJV only argumentation, or he distorted the truth about the credibility of the KJV apologists he was criticizing.

Seeing that I happen to know James just a bit having spent some time with him in extended conversation with several other men, and seeing that I know many men who are much closer to James than I am and can vouch for the integrity of his character, I find the accusation posed in this question to be... well ... trashy. So, I personally emailed James White through his ministry, Alpha and Omega Ministries, and presented to him this question. This is what he wrote back to me:

There has been only one edition of the book to begin with. While I would like to do a new edition, it would be hard, since I did the original typesetting myself! So I have no idea where these folks are coming from or what they are referring to. I shall look into their charge.

In other words, this KJV only apologist has either been misinformed as to the nature of Mr. White's book, or he is making this lie up. I know James, and I do not believe he is lying to me. So which is it Bible Discernment guy? Are you intentionally making this charge up or have you bought into the distortions of fact? I notice that you got the title of his book wrong when you wrote out this question, so maybe you are a dupe depending upon 2nd or 3rd hand information. Additionally, you seem to think that Ms. Gail Riplinger is a credible apologist for your cause even though she has been debunked by even individuals within KJV onlyism. See for example David Cloud's two articles I found easily after a quick search here and here.



Blogger Ransom said...

"34. Do you realize that all my 'questions' are really just assertions with question marks on the end?"

Sheesh! Talk about leading the witness . . .

8:38 PM, January 07, 2007  
Blogger pilgrim said...

Actually most of those "questions" (see comment above) can be answered with two letters and a question mark--like this--So?

1:47 PM, January 08, 2007  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Of course, there probably was a previous German Bible Society that was DISBANDED after or during the Second World War.
I find these KJV-Only people perplexing, annoying and downright dishonest. A user of the AV myself, and a member of a church that promotes the AV (and the 1689 Confession, in case you were wondering), I have had words with an otherwise sound bookshop in London about stocking Gail Riplinger (putting her book in the same room as John Owen and Calvin seems wrong).

1:58 AM, January 09, 2007  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I have had words with an otherwise sound bookshop in London about stocking Gail Riplinger (putting her book in the same room as John Owen and Calvin seems wrong).

Brother, it isn't just wrong, its down right sacrilegious!


5:25 AM, January 09, 2007  
Blogger Mike-e said...

I'm really enjoying this series Fred. One of the more dangerous aspects of the movement is this whole conspiracy thing. No one has a problem with people who "like the KJ the best." The dangerous ones are the ones who assume a conspiracy amongst all those involved in modern textual criticism and translation. Its just sad to see these KJonly folks completely lie in order to keep their conspiracy theory from falling. James White is my favorite author and scholar, and its sad to read these things being said about him. But thanks for the great post Fred!

2:20 PM, January 09, 2007  
Blogger Jennifer said...

dear people, maybe you can help me answer my question. Please take time to read.
. I was raised in a over-religious faimily. Wearing skerts all the time as it says in the KJV bible that weman should not dress as men. I have been talking to my parents about this and this verse is the only thing they show. Since i grew up in a church, I have niglected the bible so I dont know where this passage is in the bible. THere is a lot of rules under the roof of my parents that i strictly dissagree with like wearing no pants at all other than this includeing::,
not being alloud to date out of my race, like blacks, hispanics, and other races too. ONLY white.
Then theres a rule of no bikini OR swimsuit to the pool.
not short hair above ears.
No listining to anything but gospel.
No tattoos or percings, yet girls can get there lobes peirced only once.
No homosexuality at all, Im not a homo but i have friends who are, and i support them as people i dont judge, witch is also a rule not to be friends with ppl like that, and i dont see anywhere in the KJV bible that support any of this.
The religion is Independant Fundamental Babtist. I grew p knowing this and became a rebel in my own household. Still living with my parents now at 21 years old I still have to abide by these rules even though I find no support in the bible or any of this. When i was going to public school all the years i was made fun of about everything I was raised on. It caused me to hide music cds and pants and jeans in order to let my personality roam. I was spanked most of the time with a leather belt by my dad if any rules were broken. I am still trying to find where everyone got these stupid rules from the bible. cAN YOU HELP ME? Is there really truth in all this??
I have been leaning toward the dress code more than anything. I want to wear pants like all the nice girls at collage, not tight tight pants but nice loose pants. Not a skert or "scort" (hand made shorts with flaps on front and back to cover groin area and buttocks made too look like a skert so you can do somthing you would need pants for, like for example, horseback rideing)
I want to find some help on somthing in the bible that i can show or tell that wearing jeans is not just a mens style. Why is it that religion leads to all this? In other faimilys that are like mine, I have seen many of times runnaways, suisides, and drug addics form into the kids i grew up in todays time. I turned up as a rebel hiding everything and showing my personality when I can, not as bad, but someone needs to stand up. No one will listein to me if I dont say anything or at least show that weman CAN wear pants and the bible does not support all of these rules. I want to move out because of these rules, but parents stop helping with collage costs if I did. Life would be more easy if I was alloud some control. They only focus on the bible.-Jennifer from Georgia

8:49 PM, August 26, 2010  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

I would be happy to help you think through these issues. Email me at the link provided in my profile page.

10:57 PM, August 26, 2010  

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