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Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Wednesday, August 30, 2006

Tin-foil Hat Theology [pt. 3]

With this post, I finally wrap up my thoughts about tin-foil hat theology and conspiracy theory driven Christianity. It is my contention that any person obsessively indulging speculative conspiracy theories is doing great harm to his spiritual health and will stifle personal sanctification.

I have broken my critique of tin-foil hat theology into 6 areas where I believe the imbibing of conspiracy theories can be harmful to a person's spirituality. The first 4 can be found in part 1 and part 2. With this post, I will consider the last 2 points.

5) A conspiracy theory mindset brings sinful accusations against others based upon pure speculation. Because tin-foil hat theology is based largely upon pure speculation, any one supposedly tied to a specific conspiracy is accused of lying or covering up the truth concerning the particular conspiracy theory under consideration. Even when the speculations of tin-foil hat theologians are challenged by others, their defense is to blameshift by saying the people they accuse in the conspiracy are lying by denying their involvement; or they charge those who challenge their conspiratorial notions with being woefully ignorant and mis-informed as to fact.

Accusing someone of lying with no tangible evidence based upon personal interpretations of highly speculative and allegedly suspicious scenarios, especially accusations leveled against a fellow Christian, is dreadfully sinful. Accusing someone of lying smacks to the core of a person's character and is tantamount to gossip and slander. Neither should cross the lips of a God fearing Christian. Yet sadly, tin-foil hat theologians engage in these sinful practices when they accuse decent men and women of acting with deception in a conspiracy theory designed to harm others. Even more disappointing is their refusal to be corrected on the nature of their slander with many of them believing they are justified in naming other Christians and tying them to all sorts of hidden malfeasance to "protect" the Church or provide a "wake-up call" to the Christian community.

Let me share a few examples of what I mean from personal experience.

A number of months ago I blogged about the crackpot who was standing out side our church handing out literature charging that our church had been infiltrated by Purpose Driven Life philosophy and that we were essentially courting the devil incarnate by having Al Mohler speak at our Shepherd's Conferences.

I am a friend of one of the accused pastors allegedly involved with this plot to bring PDL-Church growth-Marxist philosophy into my church, so I was rather mifted this fellow - who knows absolutely next to nothing about the person he is charging with conspiratorial intent - was raising such ridiculous charges against my friend. I told the guy that my pastor friend denied these charges, to which he replied, "he's lying." I was stunned. Such an accusation strikes a foundational charge against this pastor's character. I responded by asking, "are you telling me that this pastor is deceiving me as to the intentions of his ministry?" To which this guy responded by saying, "yes." Even more stunned dismay. I pressed further, "Then is it your opinion that this pastor is not saved, because lying is a characteristic of a sinner, not a Christian?" and then I followed up by asking, "And is it your opinion that the elders of this church are either ignorant of what is happening under their noses, or that they are duplicit in the plot to bring in PDL philosophy, and both would demonstrate that the elders are unqualified to shepherd this Church?" I think my questions stunned him, because he didn't really supply a solid answer, but it showed the gravity of what he was accusing our pastors of doing.

Later, via email, I ask the same guy about Al Mohler. He is of the opinion that because Dr. Mohler was a founding member of some morality organization connected to the Southern Baptist Convention, and that the organization is listed on the U.N.'s group of non-governmental organizations, this some how makes Dr. Mohler a U.N. agent or something along those lines.

Now, just as an aside, I am mystified Christians have tied all sorts of evil plotting to the United Nations. The U.N. has been primarily identified with the final, one-world government of the end times, but the U.N. has only demonstrated a general incompetence and impotence in unifying any nation under a so-called "one world government." They sure did a good job of uniting nations in the recent Israel-Lebanon war. The U.N. is only good for eliminating hook worms in 3rd world countries, not organizing a "one world government" with Anti-Christ as its head.

At any rate, Al Mohler's connection to this non-governmental organization in the SBC is enough to have his name slandered and mocked by tin-foil hat theologians, especially this fellow who was protesting our Church. Again, it doesn't matter how theologically sound Dr. Mohler comes across on his daily radio program, or even how anti-U.N. he may be in his various comments addressing the U.N. at times, this is all a big ploy to deceive and he should be considered a liar. Additionally, all those people who benefit from his ministry by radio and the Internet, along with all the hundreds of thousands of pastors who listened to him preach at a shepherd's conference, are either blind to the truth, or in agreement with his lying. Do the accusations ever stop? Everyone can't be a liar. Is it that the only people telling the truth, as well as believing the truth, are those people who join hands with the tin-foil hat theologians?

6) A hardcore belief in conspiracy theories denies the sovereignty of God The Bible is clear that God is sovereign over the affairs of this world. The book of Daniel, for example, clearly teaches that God is sovereignly directing the governments of the world, setting up and taking down kings and world leaders, to bring about His ultimate purposes. Can we not conclude then, that God is using the so-called conspiracy theories? Let us say for the sake of argument that the U.N. is out to secretly usher in a one-world government ruled by an Anti-Christ-like figure. Even if they could pull off such a thing, would it not be God's purpose in establishing that one-world government? It could very well be that tin-foil hat theologians who decry the U.N., the Illuminati, the big oil syndicates, world bankers, etc., are fighting against the will of God.

A recent commenter under the second post on this subject raised some interesting points along this line. A few of his comments are worth bringing to the front page,

Psalm 33:10 The LORD foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.

I think the Lord is always doing things that conspiracy theorist always are blaming on "they".

Pslam 44:14 You have made us a byword among the nations; the peoples shake their heads at us.

Notice how many people have all these crazy conspiracy theories about the Jews being the ones behind it all. I think God did such an incredible work with the Israelites bring them out of Egypt into the Land of Israel and people still have a phobia about it.

Isaiah 41:2 Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow...

I'm sure if America loses it's power that the conspiracy theorist will blame it on the illuminati or some group of men known as "they". Notice how conspiracy theories reject God and uplift man?

His last comment is an excellent point: Tin-hat theology places too much ability on men to overturn the decrees and works of God. It is as if God is powerless to do anything against these nefarious individuals, or that the individuals have all the power to thwart God.

Returning for a moment to my interaction with the protester in front of my Church, I specifically pointed out to him that in his eschatological theology, the one-world government being in place is necessary for Christ to return. I then asked him if it would be expedient to let the plans for the one-world government be established so as to hasten the coming of Jesus. He scratched his head on that one.

I am sure I could think of some more, but these 6 problems alone prove to me that tin-foil hat theology only serves to bring a Christian to spiritual ruin. An unhealthy pre-occupation with conspiracy theories stunts a person's growth, takes their attention off of Jesus Christ and the gospel, and causes sinful division with in the Body of Christ. I pray these Christian conspiracy chaser would open their eyes to the harm they are causing themselves and the work of the gospel in the local Church.

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32 Comments:

Blogger the Pilgrim said...

Fred,
I am aware of the some of the issues you raise.
I don't believe that anyone would deny that God is sovereign and in control of all things here on earth.
Your persistence in shrugging off Mohler's dedication to the UN agenda as a fellow of a UN-NGO, is most odd. A fellow of a UN-NGO is dedicated to the UN agenda. This is the same agenda that will destroy the church. Why do you persist in ignoring this fact? Is it because you fear those in your church who support this man? I wouldn't, as a Christian, associate with a man connected to the UN.
Your insistence in believing that the UN is a benign and incompetent org. defies all evidence and truth. You can't refute Mohler's close association with the UN, so you must now say essentially that the "UN ain't all that bad." In this, you deceive yourself greatly.
I find it very believable that the Church-growth movement could have infiltrated Grace Church. And if this is true, then those pastors who brought it in would be both false Christians and deceitful. Does it have any relevance that they are your friends?
You state the following: "Returning for a moment to my interaction with the protester in front of my Church, I specifically pointed out to him that in his eschatological theology, the one-world government being in place is necessary for Christ to return. I then asked him if it would be expedient to let the plans for the one-world government be established so as to hasten the coming of Jesus. He scratched his head on that one."
The answer to this question is no. It would not hasten the return of Christ to allow the one-world gov't to come to power more quickly. The anti-christ can't come while the church is on earth. The church must first be raptured and this timing is entirely up to God.

In reading your blogs and comments, I get the impression that you have little humility, are basically unteachable and you have little ability to learn. You are quick to mock that which you don't understand or that which goes against the consensus belief in your church. I believe that you are a "group thinker" that seems to be incapable of discerning or standing for truth on your own outside of your church group. Your churches majority belief is always your belief. You can't accept a truth that is unpopular or that exposes your own church leaders errors.

8:14 PM, August 30, 2006  
Blogger Seven Star Hand said...

Understanding the Fatal Flaws in Judeo-Christian-Islamic Prophecy

Hi Fred,

I pose to you and others that the context and meaning of these ancient texts have been lost on those confused by the assertions of religious leaders and founders. Ancient wisdom has been purposely recast and obfuscated into religion and mysticism. Consequently, the interpretations presented about the sources and meaning of these texts and the philosophy and cosmology of ancient Hebrew sages is completely wrong. Before you scoff and write me off, you should understand that I speak from personal knowledge and experience...

Remember the saying that "the truth will set you (and others) free?" How does "opening one's eyes to the truth" relate to "making the blind see again" or "shining the light" or "illuminating a subject?" Notice the inherent symbolism associated with this supposed New Testament "miracle?"

Did you ever consider that Christianity is the False Prophet symbolized in the Apocalypse, that Rome (Vatican/Papacy) is the so-called anti-messiah, and Jesus Christ is the false messiah? I have produced stunning and comprehensive proof that this is the true interpretation of pivotal prophecies long confounded by Christianity's founders and leaders. Recasting the symbolism of earlier Hebrew texts as literal events in the New Testament is one of the central deceptions associated with Christianity.

As certain world leaders strive to instigate a fabricated "battle of Armageddon," it is vital to understand and spread the truth about these ancient texts to help bring about an end to such abominable evil. You can never expect philosophies based on lies and great error to lead to peace and harmony. How many more millennia of terrible proof is necessary before humanity finally gets a clue that most have been utterly deceived by the very concept of religion.

Without it, Bush, the Neo-Cons, and their cohorts could never have gained and retained political power by manipulating an already deluded and susceptible constituency. Likewise, their thinly-veiled partners in crime, Bin Laden and his ilk, could never have succeeded in their roles in this centuries-old Vatican-led grand deception.

Have you ever heard of Machiavelli? What better way to hide the truth than to divide people among three related but divergent religions (or other strong delusions) that each obscure the truth while claiming that each is the truth!

Want to see the symbol for the tri-part endless loop and logic-trap that such a three-part Machiavellian delusion forms? Ever seen a Triquetra ( and here)? Pay very close attention to its visual relationship to 666, the most famous of all triangular numbers.

Now consider how money, religion, and politics are inseparable because of the inescapable trap (bottomless pit) they form...

We are all trapped in a web of deception woven with money, religion, and politics. The great evils that bedevil us all will never cease until humanity finally awakens, shakes off these strong delusions, and forges a new path to the future.

Here is Wisdom...

Peace...

9:48 PM, August 30, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

You make some excellent points, Pilgrim. Fred will not accept an unpopular truth, nor will he accept a truth that exposes errors in his church, nor is he teachable.

SS HAND,
Though you did say something true-"the vatican is evil"; that's about all you said that is true.

2:50 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

Please, stop! stop!

If I may be so bold, may I make a few observations?

1. Pilgrim & surfer boy, you accuse fred of being unteachable. Could not the same point be made against you by those who do not share your ideas? Or is it just because Fred is wrong, and you are right?

2. Seven Star Hand. If Jesus Christ is the false Messiah, how could you know from 'the Revelation of Jesus Christ'(Rev.1:1)?

I ask because I wish to know.

4:14 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Oh boy! the moonbats are swarming!

On a more serious note, Pilgrim, surely the fact that Fred KNOWS these people ought to count for something? And the fact that the accusers do NOT know these people ought to count for something as well. S.S. Hand, do you perchance have any relationship with Jack Chick?

I note, dear moonbats, that you and Senor Butler have one thing in common - neither of you will accept what the other says. Pots, laddies, should not call kettles black, and thgose who live in glass houses should avoid bunging bricks around the place.
So long.

4:15 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

Wow, Fred. You have got your hands full with this crop of comments.

For the record, I have known Fred for over ten years, and have found him to be anything BUT "unteachable." If Fred were "unteachable," he would still believe in King James Version Only.

4:19 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger The Green Man said...

I can reveal the shocking secret of S. S. Hand, a mystery that has bothered readers of his post for all of the two minutes needed to follow one of his links:

"I am Melchizedek, reincarnated, the primary servant of the Creator of this universe, on this planet. I am the ancient sage and symbologist who labored through many lifetimes authoring much of the ancient wisdom and prophecy that religious leaders recast to serve their own greedy and deceptive purposes."

I invite readers to draw their own conclusions. As for me, I know the truth, for I am the Green Man.

4:22 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Pilgrim weighs in:

I don't believe that anyone would deny that God is sovereign and in control of all things here on earth.

(Fred) You and other tin-foil hat theologians who drink up every conspiracy theory out there deny God's sovereignty. Did you not see my last point? How do you know that the "they" behind the so-called conspiracy is not real the Lord God Himself?

Your persistence in shrugging off Mohler's dedication to the UN agenda as a fellow of a UN-NGO, is most odd. A fellow of a UN-NGO is dedicated to the UN agenda. This is the same agenda that will destroy the church.

(Fred) Why is it odd? First off, Al Mohler is fellow of a SBC morality group. What do you think a fellow is exactly? Do they meet in secret meetings with the other UN fellows from around the world? Second, Al Mohler is one of the most articulate and biblically minded spokesman for the fundamental Christian faith in the world today. Obviously he is not too much in line with the UN's agenda, because he is against homosexual marriage, just hired a biblical 6-day creationist to chair the science department at his school, and believes Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Not too many folks on the UN are going to like that. If you look at that list of NGOs, you will note that they all are a hodge-podge of varying worldviews. Does that mean the members of that group, say for example Amnesty International, are all laying aside their core, presuppositional commitments to work together, say for instance, the SBC morality group where Al is a "fellow?" Or, does it mean they all can benefit from the UN for their own personal goals? Third, what exactly is the UN agenda? Where can I get a copy of this agenda so I can read it myself? How do YOU know what that agenda is?

Again, by the very fact that you believe the UN agenda will destroy the Church, the same exact Church Jesus our Lord said could not be destroyed and will break open the gates of hell, demonstrates that you have a low view of God's omnipotence and you assign way too much power and ability to the political machinery of men. Who is truly honoring God here?

Your insistence in believing that the UN is a benign and incompetent org. defies all evidence and truth.

(Fred) Can you provide me some evidence that shows how the UN is a competent organization in setting up a one-world government? How exactly did this UN wield such power in the recent Israel-Hezbollah conflict? How about with reigning in Iran? Or the crackpot leader of North Korea?

You can't refute Mohler's close association with the UN

(Fred) Well, you can't refute something that doesn't exist. How exactly do you define a "close association?" Golfing buddies with Kofi?

I find it very believable that the Church-growth movement could have infiltrated Grace Church. And if this is true, then those pastors who brought it in would be both false Christians and deceitful. Does it have any relevance that they are your friends?

(Fred) Does it have relevance that they are my friends? Yes, of course it does. I know their character and their convictions. You don't.

The answer to this question is no. It would not hasten the return of Christ to allow the one-world gov't to come to power more quickly. The anti-christ can't come while the church is on earth. The church must first be raptured and this timing is entirely up to God.

(Fred) So your beliefs come down to your core presuppositions of a classic Dispensational, Tim Lahaye-TBN view of the end-times.

I guess if I wanted to, I could say you are the victim of the real conspiracy. I could say that you are believing what the Illuminati wants you to believe. In fact all Pre-tribulational, Dispensationalists have been deceived by the Illuminati, and men like Tim Lahaye is in close association with them, maybe even an agent. You see, Margaret McDonald, the young gal in the 1800s who had "visions" of the Pre-trib rapture, was a daughter of a man who was involved with the European banking society. The Illuminati controlled them, and used Margaret to convince the Church to believe a pre-trib rapture, by claiming she had a "revelation" from God. Nelson Darby also had close ties to her family and promoted the scheme. Later, C.I. Scofield had the Illuminati here in the U.S. fund the publishing of his study Bible that spread the pre-trib rapture doctrine, along with the gap theory and the carnal Christian doctrine through out the entire Church. The end goal was to produce a moral majority here in America that would take a "literalist" approach to Israel and support a Zionist state from where the Illuminati higher ups could control the world oil market. So it is really you, my friend, who is blind to the truth and have foolishly allowed yourself to be used by the forces of evil.

I guess I could say that if I wanted to, because it makes sense to my "interpretation" of all the facts, but such an assertion is absurd.

You are quick to mock that which you don't understand or that which goes against the consensus belief in your church. I believe that you are a "group thinker" that seems to be incapable of discerning or standing for truth on your own outside of your church group. Your churches majority belief is always your belief.

(Fred) Seeing that the "consensus" beliefs of my Church, elders and pastors is orthodox, biblical Christianity, yes, you are quite right, I will quickly mock those goofball ideas, philosophies and worldviews that go against our "group thinking." If your church's majority beliefs are right and true, of course I am not going to go off on my own outside of that group.

You can't accept a truth that is unpopular or that exposes your own church leaders errors.

(Fred) I don't equate "accepting truth" as imbibing conspiratorial, tin-foil hat theology. So I think you really mean to say, "You can't accept MY conspiratorial scenarios as real."

Just a challenge before I close: Maybe you need to reconsider your own "groups beliefs." From my vantage point, you are to me what you accuse me of being. In other words, I see you and Surfer as two guys who have no ability to discern or who do not stand on truth outside of your "church" group who believe in conspiracies. You are just as much a group thinker as you accuse me of being. But, to be honest, your attitude of paranoia and the "consensus of my Church is wrong" assertions remind me of those men in 2 Peter 2, Ephesians 4:11ff. and Jude, who make havoc of the Church and God's people. I only pray you will repent.

Fred

8:05 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Just for everyone's information. If the Seven Star hand guy posts again, he is getting deleted forth with. I will let his first post stand because some folks have responded to him, but he is nuttier than a tree of squirrels.

Interesting that Surfer had issues with some of his conspiracy theories. Why exactly is he wrong seeing that it is based upon the same speculative, rambling ideas as Surfer's?


Fred

8:10 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger The Green Man said...

The value of Seven Star Hand is that he shows where those who embrace conspiracy theories are headed. Just as Spurgeon rightly identified a theological down-grade, there is a conspiratorial downgrade.

First comes an obsessive interest in the Kennedy Assassination, an area where there are doubts, and these have been entertained at length. Then it seems as if other things were conspiracies, and before you know it you're spending your time publishing books about a truth revealed to you alone because you're the reincarnation of Melchiziek and God's annointed instrument of revelation.

And, if there is any justice in the world, you would be locked in a padded cell soon after that.

8:42 AM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Interestingly Scofield did have a rather shady past. Not that I believe he was an agent of the Illuminati (mostly because there IS no Illuminati, not any more), but he was a much more likely one than Albert Mohler. Canfield's biography of Scofield 'The Incredible Scofield and his Book' was of course dismissed as part of the conspiracy by Scofield's followers, all of which proves... something.

12:59 PM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Fred,
You said the following: "I guess if I wanted to, I could say you are the victim of the real conspiracy. I could say that you are believing what the Illuminati wants you to believe. In fact all Pre-tribulational, Dispensationalists have been deceived by the Illuminati, and men like Tim Lahaye is in close association with them, maybe even an agent. You see, Margaret McDonald, the young gal in the 1800s who had "visions" of the Pre-trib rapture, was a daughter of a man who was involved with the European banking society. The Illuminati controlled them, and used Margaret to convince the Church to believe a pre-trib rapture, by claiming she had a "revelation" from God. Nelson Darby also had close ties to her family and promoted the scheme. Later, C.I. Scofield had the Illuminati here in the U.S. fund the publishing of his study Bible that spread the pre-trib rapture doctrine, along with the gap theory and the carnal Christian doctrine through out the entire Church. The end goal was to produce a moral majority here in America that would take a "literalist" approach to Israel and support a Zionist state from where the Illuminati higher ups could control the world oil market. So it is really you, my friend, who is blind to the truth and have foolishly allowed yourself to be used by the forces of evil."

Now I think that there is some truth in what you say here. I know very well that Scofield and La Haye are dirty. And I believe that any Christian who supports Israel has been duped. And I know about darby and Mcdonald. But what exactly are you saying? Are you saying that the church goes through tribulation? Then why are redeemed gentiles in Heaven singing to Christ before Rev6? Why don't you explain clearly what you believe and why. So you believe that antichrist can come and trib can begin while the church is still here? Remember, Satans agents mix lies with truths. Not everything they say is false. Can I presume that your views are Macarthurs? Tell me what you believe regarding dispensationalism and the rapture and the church.

I can tell you that A.M. is a fellow of a UN-NGO. He is dedicated to the UN agenda. Will you deny this? You call it a "morality group"? That's the first time Marxism has been called morality. You want to know the agenda? Go to the UN website and read about UN agenda 21 the agenda for sustainable development. A M is the enemy of the church. Read Dr. Klenck's work that you so quickly dismiss. You have already falsely stated that a Christian can serve the UN agenda. That shows a great lack of understanding on your part.

3:03 PM, August 31, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Surfer laddie. Al Mohler is NOT a fellow. of a UN NGO but of an NGO that is recognised by the UN. This DOES NOT mean that the NGO agrees with everything that the UN does or thinks, just as the fact that the Association of Grace Baptist Churches in the UK is a registered charity with the UK government does not mean that the AGBC agrees with every UK government policy (it does not, it opposes several). All of which is to say that an organisation may accept funds and/or recognition from another body with which it is not in total agreement. I know, I have been a member of such a body in a university setting.

I note that you accuse Dr. Mohler of being a Marxist and an enemy of the church on this flimsy basis. Now, call me old fashioned, but I call that libel. Interestingly you do not seem to think that HE is decieved. I should be very careful about flinging around such wild accusations if I were you. Bringing false accusations against a member of the body of Christ is a serious business.

3:27 AM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Some digging produced this information about UN-affiliated NGOs:

Please note that association of NGOs with DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system.

Yet Surfer Boy's accusations are apparently based on the idea that it does (hence the phrase 'UN-NGO' that he uses, or so I conjecture. So, based on a misunderstanding of the status of UN associated NGOs, he libels Dr. Mohler. Oh, Dr. Mohler can't be decieved, no. he must be evil. THAT spirit seems to prove Fred's point that conspiracy theories are bad for the soul.

3:40 AM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Highland Post,

You are wrong and your analogy with UK churches and the UK government is a false one.

All NGO's believe in and support the UN agenda. No organization gets an NGO status by accident. All NGO's serve the UN agenda. Let me copy you just some of the criteria for an org. to partner with the UN as an NGO.
---------------------------------
Criteria for association with DPI

the NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the UN and have a clear mission statement with those principles
the NGO must be recognized nationally or internationally
the NGO should operate solely on a not-for-profit basis and have tax-exempt status
the NGO must have the commitment and the means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents about UN activities
the NGO should have an established record of continuity of work for a minimum of three years and should show promise of sustained activity in the future
the NGO should have a satisfactory record of collaboration with UN Information Centres/Services or other parts of the UN System prior to association
the NGO should provide an audited annual financial statement, conducted by a qualified, independent accountant
the NGO should have statutes/by-laws providing for a transparent process of making decisions, elections of officers and members
-----------------------------------
AM is the founding fellow of a UN-NGO. That is a fact and that is the proper terminology. ALL the fellows of this org. are dedicated to the UN agenda. People within this org. state that. So do you think that this orgs. leaders would libel one of their own. It is a fact, that a UN-NGO, and it's leaders ALL toe the line for the UN. Not only that, I know for a fact that this particular org. has now applied for "special consultative status" with the UN. Do you foolishly believe that an org. can be granted this status without being fully dedicated to the UN agenda?
It is common knowledge that the UN is a communist org. It's first Sec Gen, Alger Hiss, was a commie spy. The UN is a communist, Satanic org. That's a fact. You should understand that the "churches" serving the UN agenda as NGO's are dedicated to a Marxist agenda and an agenda that will destroy the true church.

I have never stated that an NGO is a branch of the UN or is part of the UN

system. Technically it is not. But the point is irrelevant because they are nonetheless dedicated to the UN agenda.
If you believe that AM is deceived, then you are greatly deceived. AM is dedicated to an agenda which is designed to destroy the church. And so is his fellow So. Baptist, R Warren. as well as his good friend B Graham.

Do your homework next time before you accuse a Christian of libel.

2:24 PM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

I must state that you, surfer Boy, illustrate what the greatest problem of Conspiracy theories is. In the course of your latest post, you have defamed a good Christian man. You cannot know the heart of Albert Mohler, yet you are prepared to aver that he is the most monstrous and cunning villain.

You say:

'I have never stated that an NGO is a branch of the UN or is part of the UN system. Technically it is not. But the point is irrelevant because they are nonetheless dedicated to the UN agenda.'

You have contradicted yourself. If they are dedicated to the UN agenda, then they are a part of the UN system, even if they are not a part of the UN. Now, would you mind awfully telling us what the UN agenda is, in your opinion?

The NGO in question, the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission is a fairly standard relief and morals organisation. It is opposed to Gay Marriage and stem-cell research, not to mention falling birth-rates and abortion. The UN family planning arm is a notorious advocate of abortion. So, apparently one can apply for such status and not be committed fully to the UN agenda.

The UN is not a Communist front. In 1951, the UN deployed against Communism in Korea. Yes, Hiss was a Communist spy, but he was only acting Secretary General of the first meeting and chosen by the USA. The first man to be actually elected Secretary General was Trygve Lie (1946-2), who resigned in 1952 due to Soviet opposition to his candidacy. The second Secretary-General, Dag Hammarskjöld (1953-61), Swedish Deputy foreign minister, was chosen in a compromise and so engraged the Soviets that they attempted to have the Secretary-General replaced by a three-person troika.

The idea that the UN is a Communist front is old, and I hoped that it would have died with the USSR. Except that there are still some people out there who think the USSR never really collapsed (see the book 'The Perestoika Deception).

3:59 PM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger The Green Man said...

Pilgrim: You state that you believe God is Sovereign, but in your words, you deny that.

You state that Fred Bultler cannot accept a truth that is unpopular. It is you that cannot accept the truth, Pilgrim. There is no conspiracy to bring about a one-world Government. No men have control over all the princes, Presidents and Prime Ministers of the earth. Only one has that power, and he sits enthroned on the circle of the earth. The King's heart is in the hand of the Lord. All would-be one world Governments in the past were a part of the judgement of God.

The conspiracy theorists will not accept this truth because then they will stop being characters in an Oliver Stone film, some of the few who have discovered the truth, the elite outside the elite.

One day, all will be laid bare, and we shall be asked to give an account of ourselves. And one of those questions will be: did you spend more time preaching God or man? Did you tell people of the God who died for the sins of men, or did you tell them about the UN conspiracy to create a one-world Government.

If the latter, know that, even if it does exist. It will not succeed unless the LORD wills it.

4:08 PM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Hiraeth,
You are lying. I never said that AM was montrous or a cunning villain. Nether do you know what's in his heart--that's why Christ said we'd know them by their fruit. If you believe that he is a "good Christian man", then why don't you pray to God that you can spend eternity with him.

I never contradicted myself. According to the UN, an NGO is NOT part of the UN system!! But they are dedicated to the UN agenda. An NGO is NOT a UN branch, but it is dedicated to it's agenda. I know very well what I'm saying.

If you want to know the UN agenda, then you look it up. Regarding the ERLC, you don't know what you are talking about. The ERLC is a Marxist org. that plays it's role in deceiving conservative Christians by use of the dialectic process.

You say the idea that the UN is a communist front is old... That's right and it is also true. You naively believe the USSR collapsed? They have, by far, the strongest military in the world.

You are so certain the UN isn't communist. A. Hiss was the UN's FIRST, though temporary, Sec Gen. He was a Soviet agent. Hiss' goal was to establish a world goverment that fit the commies vision for socialist control. In 1946, he was replaced by Trgve Lie, a Norwegian labor leader. Lie had earlier been nominated to head the UN's general assembly by Andrey Gromyko of the Soviets. In 1950, Lie wanted the UN to admit the Chinese commies, but he offended the Soviets by supporting military intervention in the Korean War. Sen. Macarthy's investigation accused Lie of giving jobs to commies. Lie resigned in 1952.

Let me state more facts about the UN. This is from an article called "The un-American UN" by Steve Farrell. "Of the 17 individuals identified by the state dept. as having shaped US policy leading to the creation of the UN, all but one were identified as members of the Communist Party USA." "In it's 54 year history, all 8 Sec Gen's of the UN have been dedicated socialists or communists, all 15 of the UN under-sec gen's have been communists(all but one from the Soviet Union).,2/3 of the membership in the gen assembly and the security council have been reps for socialist and communist countries." In 1952, an official senate investigation into the then 6 year old UN revealed 'EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE INDICATING THAT THERE IS TODAY IN THE UN AMONG THE AMERICAN EMPLOYEES THERE, THE GREATEST CONCENTRATION OF COMMUNISTS THAT THIS COMMITTEE HAS EVER ENCOUNTERED' AND THESE WERE HIGH OFFICIALS."

Green Man,
God is in control of this world. You are right. When you say there is no conspircy to create a 1 world gov't, you tell a lie. Liars don't inherit the kingdom.
Though God does control all, a father controls his family, a general controls his troops, creditors control debtors, the one who hold the A bomb controls the one who just has a rifle and men do control the presidents of this earth.
Christians are also called to expose the works of darkness. God's control of all and man's conspiracies are not mutually exclusive.

7:23 PM, September 01, 2006  
Blogger The Green Man said...

Men may believe they control the Presidents of the world. They are wrong.

One does, and He is sovereign.

8:06 AM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

Sit back, Surfer Boy, and take a good look at yourself in the mirror. On your reply to Hiraeth. You said 'A.M is the enemy of the Church.' In my book, that means you believe he's a villain.

I do pray that I shall spend eternity with Al Mohler.

Now, perhaps you'd like to tell me how you 'know' the ERLC is a Communist front. If 'do your homework' means agree with you, I didn't, but I did spend some hours researching the ERLC. If I've missed something, I would like to know.

You toss around accusations of lying with a ghastly ease, as easily as you comdemn people to Hell (in your last post, you seemed to indicate that the Green Man and Al Mohler were going to hell). If people have to be like you to believe in conspiracies, I'm glad I'm too naive to do so.

8:12 AM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

Oh, and Surfer Boy, may I know how you know there is a conspiracy to create a one-world Government. May I know the personnel? Who is the master-mind, who are his minions, what organisations will be used?

And, to repeat myself. The USSR collapsed in 1991. I saw it, I have been there.

8:15 AM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger Gerard Charmley said...

Well, I think Fred's point about the danger of conspiracy theories has been conclusively demonstrated.

8:20 AM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Without a doubt.

Surfer Boy made that quite clear when he said to The Green Man: "When you say there is no conspircy to create a 1 world gov't, you tell a lie. Liars don't inherit the kingdom."
That one ought to be printed in large red letters. apparently according to Surfer Boy (logically speaking), if you deny his conspracy theory it is proof that you are unsaved. On that basis he and Pilgrim are the only true Christians in this comment thread. The rest of us are liars because we refuse to believe their conspiracy theories, and "Liars don't inherit the kingdom."

Scary stuff.

8:40 AM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

I'll tell you what's "scary stuff." That supposed Christians don't know that there is a one world gov't in the making. That Christians are so incredibly naive.
You want to know the mastermind of the 1 world conspiracy? It is satan and his army of demons. One of the major orgs. used is the UN.

You don't know who AM is. You pray you'll spend eternity with him? How foolish can you be?

The collapse of the USSR was a deception.

If you say there isn't a one-world gov't in the making, then you are lying. If I said that you were right, then I'd make myself a liar.

You wany to know about the ERLC? I already said it's a UN-NGO. I already said all NGO's are dedicated to the UN agenda. And I just proved that the UN is a commie org. Here's a quote from Dr. Land, the head of the ERLC. "Imagine an America where more Christians are radical change agents. Where people are liberated from the cult of self and committed to the common good." I got this from the ERLC website. Do you know what he is saying? Do you know what kind of language this is? Does this sound like a Christian? Check out the orgs. that Dr. Land is a part of. Here's your homework--AM and Land want Christians to be "radical change agents." Do you know what that means? Do you think that is Biblical?

2:25 PM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Yes, I would like to reveal to you all that I am really "Surfer Boy" and I have been fooling you as an example of how tin-foil hat theologians think.

But alas, "SB" is the real thing.

A living, breathing example of how conspiratorial ideas can warp your view of reality and our sovereign God.

Just a word of shout out: I have appreciated my Highland friends from across the pond and how they have raised some excellent points to Surfer's arguments. Some folks may wonder why waste our time with someone like this, but sadly, these folks and their type of thinking are peppered through out the Churches, at least here in the U.S. It is important to supply a meaningful and sound rebuke to their theories less others become sucked into the slough of their despond.

Fred

3:57 PM, September 02, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Fred, I know full well that God is sovereign.
Fred is not allowed to say a negative word about AM. Why? Because his pastor has been duped by him. Fred isn't allowed to see any truths that contradict his church leaders.
It's true what I said before--you are unteachable.

2:09 AM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

Surfer Boy, I know who Al Mohler is, he is the President of Southern Baptist Seminary, and few men have done more to glorify God in America. That is why I pray that I might be found worthy of sharing eternity with him.

'The collapse of the USSR was a deception.' Someone here is deluded. The modern Russian state has a large army, is committed to restricting the freedom of the people and wishes to exercise influence on the countries around it. Well, surfer boy, I've news for you. That has been true of the Russian state for about 500 years, if not longer. Does that mean the regime of the Tsars never fell either? Or does it mean that every Russian government inherits Russia's perceived cultural mission?

Interestingly, among the people in the past who believed in a world-wide conspiracy run by the Russians was a certain Karl Marx (see his 'Life of Lord Palmerston').

You have not 'proved' anything. Your comments have been high on assertion and low on actual facts. You have cited one article, but have not said where it may be found, while the other 'facts' you have cited are contentious interpretations. Again, I repeat, where may these 'truths' be found? I am not going to submit my reason and conscience to a mere man on his say-so, that is one of the things I have against Roman Catholicism.

In analysing the following comment:

"Imagine an America where more Christians are radical change agents. Where people are liberated from the cult of self and committed to the common good."

You appear to have approached it with the mindset of a paranoiac. We ARE called to love our neighbours as ourselves, to esteem others better than ourselves! Radical individualism is an outgrowth of the Enlightenment. It is not Christian. And yes, I do believe that Christians are called to be radical change agents. What else would you call Wesley, Lord Shaftesbury, William Wilberforce?

I think I know what Land and Mohler mean, and that is Biblical, namely that as Christians we are called to be salt and light in this unbelieveing generation.

On conspiracy theories in general, I feel that they skirt close to a gonostic dualism. First, the assertions about Satan seem to me dangerously close to a dualistic view. Satan has been defeated. Further, the conspiracy believer feels that they have special knowledge that sets them above others. They attempt to propagate that knowledge without spiritual discernment, and seem to end up making ghastly assertions, ending with the position, in surfer boy's case, that if one does not believe the conspiracy theory then one cannot be a real Christian.

What is scary stuff is that there are people out there who believe that slandering people they do not know as supporters of a conspiracy that no-one can see actually matters in the long run. Preach the gospel according to Jesus Christ, not according to some whacko who hasn't noticed the Cold War's over and a new and far more deadly threat faces us!

Lastly, Surfer Boy, there is a conspiracy to create a one world government, guided by Satan. It's called radical Islam. You may have noticed that we've been fighting it for almost five years now.

6:26 AM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Hiraeth,
You have many opinions. Most all of them are very wrong and even laughable.

1:32 PM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger Highland Host said...

Hiraeth has raised an important point about conspiracy theories. The moonbat (such as Jack Chick) practically sees the 'conspiracy', whatever it is, as Satan's only tool. Thus Jack Chick concentrates on Romanism and those who follow him ignore the reality of secularism. In the same way Surfer Boy sees the UN and his imagined one-world government as the only tool satan is using and ignores radical Islam, believing it to be a hoax. Osama is not the enemy, Al Mohler is!

May I suggest a search for someone's marbles is in order?

1:50 PM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

Surfer boy, you said: 'You have many opinions. Most all of them are very wrong and even laughable.'

Coming from you, I take that as a compliment. Needless to say, the feeling is mutual.

4:04 PM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger Hiraeth said...

That said, I do hope that you do not find the assertion that we are to love our neighbours as ourselves 'laughable', nor indeed that the gravest threat at the moment is radical Islam, not some shadowy would-be one world government that may or may not exist. Nor indeed that Christians are called to exert a benificial effect on the society we live in.

Another problem of conspiracy theories, methinks, is a lack of constructive engagement with the world, a failure to be salt and light.

4:11 PM, September 03, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Highland Post,
Did I ever say that the UN is the only tool Satan is using? Did I ever say that radical Islam was a hoax? You're putting words in my mouth. You and Hiraeth are both greatly deceived. Didn't Hiraeth just say that the UN isn't communist?
Fred,
Why don't you answer my question? I take it that you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. Why don't you tell me what you believe? You're a seminary grad. Does the church go through trib or not and why?

11:45 PM, September 03, 2006  

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