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Hip and Thigh: Smiting Theological Philistines with a Great Slaughter. Judges 15:8

Monday, July 24, 2006

Mending Chipped Ceramics

The Bob Johnson Saga

[updated 8/29/10]

See Special update as of August, 29th, 2010

Opening Remarks:

I posted this email response of mine to Bob Johnson back in 2006. Since then, however, he has become more vocal and aggressive against John MacArthur, even putting together a website and an occasionally updated blog so as to post his rants. Individuals outside of Grace Community Church have contacted John MacArthur's radio ministry, Grace to You, looking for a response. The radio ministry doesn't make it a habit to respond to such muddled antagonists like Bob, but because of the nature of my personal blog, I have. So any meaningful response to Bob comes through a handful of blog articles I have written about him.

Due to recent events during the fall of 2009 with a local L.A. intercity "pastor" by the name of John Coleman who has allowed Bob to teach his error about Grace Church on his personal internet webcasts, I thought it necessary to revisit my posts regarding Bob and update them with new personal comments. I have re-edited the original post just a bit and have added new editorial comments that provide more context to the claims Bob makes against Grace:



Some of you may remember my post highlighting a conversation with a fellow by the name of Bob who was on the sidewalk out side of my Church passing out literature claiming that two of the single ministries were promoting Purpose-Driven Life/ Saddleback methodology. [Editor's note: Those two ministries in question are The Guild, a fellowship group aimed at singles 35 and older, and The Foundry, a fellowship group aimed at college graduates 21 to 30. The Foundry disbanded in early 2009 because the pastor, Kurt Gebhards, took a pastorate in North Carolina and the elders of Grace thought it better to close it, rather than look for a replacement pastor]

Bob's literature [available on-line HERE] further charged that these ministries were promoting what is called an Hegelian-dialectic process of "brainwashing" its members to all think alike. These dialectic sessions take place in small group settings and because Marxists have historically used small group settings to mind control the people, all of the small groups affiliated with the two suspect singles ministries are engaging in this Hegelian-dialectic process and thus stoking the hotbeds of Marxist revolutionaries.

Since I posted that original article, Bob and another fellow by the name of Robert who agrees with Bob, have been emailing me off and on. They both have been attempting to convince me of my slavish devotion to Grace and being blinded to the truth. The phrases "open your eyes" and "have an open mind" are oft repeated in their emails.

They have pointed me to the writings of a Robert Klenck and Dean Gotcher who claim to be the foremost authorities on the Church Growth Movement, and a local LA pastor named John Coleman who regularly entertains Klenck and Gotcher's ideas on his web cast.

[Editor's note: Robert Klenck is an orthopaedic surgeon by profession. He apparently has a propensity to entertain conspiracy theory type ideas such as the nefarious dealings of the U.N. in the world and their alleged attempts to usher in a one world government that will set up the anti-Christ. Much of his teaching regarding "church growth" methodology has been developed in this matrix of conspiracy laden ideology. Because his teaching against "church growth" has this conspiracy driven philosophy behind it, his so-called exposes' against church growth methodology is unique, if not out right unusual and strange. He thinks that he has gotten to the real heart of the matter with identifying "church growth" methodology by highlighting the so-called Hegelian-Marxist connection and the small group dynamic.

Dean Gotcher has a similar approach to exposing "church growth" ideas as Klenck, but as I understand it, he has distanced himself from Klenck and Coleman. John Coleman is a former pastor who has had an "apologetic" style ministry in L.A. for a number of years. He once participated on a local apologetic radio program with the addition of pastoring a Baptist church. Around 1998 he was dismissed from his church due to some serious accusations of inappropriate behavior with male congregants. He now maintains a "house church" with a handful of supporters. He also has kept up a webcast called RAM radio on which he has frequently entertained the conspiracy theory ideas of Klenck]


Well, for the sake of providing a more comprehensive critique of what Bob is charging and providing an antidote to the non-sense about the core of church growth methodology being directly tied to Hegelian philosophy so that if your Church has small discipleship groups you are breeding Commies in your midst, I wanted to publish one of my more extensive emails to Bob that interacts with his key charges.

Just to make it perfectly clear to my readers, I am NOT speaking for Grace Community Church in any official capacity. My interaction with Bob is solely on my own free time. Though I do believe I am responding to him as a concerned member of Grace, my words are my own and I bare the sole responsibility for them.


Bob,
I appreciate the email and the frankness of your words. I will address each of your points in turn, but by way of introduction it is important for you to realize that you are not unique. I realize you may think you have some sort of special message of alarm for the people of Grace; that you have some sort of wall watching ministry where you feel compelled of the Lord to alert us to some special message that you alone with a handful of friends have discovered. However, you must know that you stand at the end of a long line of odd individuals with an assortment of odd beliefs.

Grace has always had people like yourself standing on the side walks out in front of our church warning the members of some bad teaching or philosophy infiltrating our ranks. Years ago, Darwin Fish claimed we were all under the influence of psychology and he and his band of merry messengers handout papers like you have. Other people claimed John denied the gospel because he denied the blood of Christ, that he denied the deity of Christ because he held to incarnational sonship, and that he taught sinless perfection because of his views of Romans 7. Other individuals have attempted to warn us about his use of the NASB from the pulpit. We have received hundreds of copies of quack researcher Gail Riplinger's book, New Age Bible Versions with desperate notes attached begging us to tell John to stop using the NASB for his preaching. Another group of protesters accuse John of being in league with neo-cons and Zionists, while others hand out papers "documenting" how the CFR and Trilateral Commission controls John because of certain views he holds.

So Bob, please don't take it personally when people dismiss you as a kook. We have had our fair share of them around here over the years claiming they have some prophetic warning about the goings on at our church which are utterly nonsensical.

Furthermore, you must also understand our annoyance toward your accusations against two of our pastors we have known personally for years. For you, an ill informed outsider, to publish a paper accusing two of our fine men of basically being liars and brute beasts seeking the destruction of our church and the souls of the people in our church, only rankles us and closes our minds to your message. You claim you would not lie to me, but the very fact you are raising slanderous accusations against these two men demonstrates you are already doing this.

Now, I won't say it is lying just yet, because I will grant you being woefully ignorant of the facts and there is teachability on your part. With that in mind, let me address your points:


*I knew that the Guild was a purpose driven ministry before I ever went there. It is obvious from the language on their website. I only went there to corroborate that fact. I suspected that the Foundry was purpose driven from the website as well. This suspicion was confirmed to me when I went there. It is not necessary that I go to these ministries more than once or even go at all in order to know this. I would estimate that the Guild is 85% purpose driven and the Foundry is 65% purpose driven*.
[Editor's note: Bob visited the Guild once, meaning only one time. His accusations against our singles ministries is based upon this one visit to a Friday night study in the spring of 2006. Bob has also since modified his percentages claiming now that both ministries are/were 100% purpose driven].

(Fred) How did you know these ministries were "purpose driven" before you went there to see for yourself? Did you conclude this your self or did someone tell you? You deduced that from scanning over a website and witnessing "language" you find suspicious? [Editor's note: Bob claims the use of certain language implies a PDL or Hegelian-Marxist influence. So, if someone were to say, "I want the Bible study to catch a vision for missions", the phrase catch a vision is a PDL term, thus by implication, the user of such language adheres to the so-called "church growth" methodology Klenck and Bob point out].

I take it that it does not matter to you that all the leadership (many of whom I know personally at each group) denies these claims? From my observation of your paper you wrote, you have a description of church growth that I would reject. I could care less what Hegel or Marx taught. So what if they taught a small group methodology to control people, this is not what is happening at Grace. In fact, I notice through out your article that you have this hang up with small groups, like the application group you supposedly attended. Small groups have been an integral part of GCC for years, long before Rick Warren was even pastoring at Saddleback.

I thoroughly enjoyed my small groups when I was involved with a singles ministry (by the way, the small, application group dynamic is only found in the singles ministries; they are not found in the other adult fellowship groups). The home Bible studies and the application group is where I got to know people on an intimate level. I had accountability as a believer and I was prayed for and stretched to think biblically. To automatically equate any small group dynamic as you define it through Marxist-Hegelian filters with being "church growth" is utterly absurd. Like I told Rob who raised a similar objection, it would be like a person accusing John of allowing Mormonism to infiltrate GCC because one of his main series is called the "Fulfilled Family." Because Mormons speak of having "Fulfilled Families" we are imbibing Mormon theology. such a comparison is ridiculous.


You (and the Klenck fellow) seem to have a fringe definition of what you perceive as church growth philosophy and because folks at Grace may use "buzz" words you find suspect or enact group dynamics you defined as suspect, it is automatically labeled as purpose driven and church growth. This is presumption at its worse.

Let me break up your next point and address individual claims:

*I spoke with a man who read my letter who attended the Guild and the Foundry for 4 months. He corroborated what I said*


(Fred) Who exactly was this person? Is he credible as a critic of these ministries? By "credible" I mean to say was he someone actively involved with these ministries where he was attending regularly, had friends within these ministries, and actually knew and interacted with the leadership of these ministries? I have met many people over the years who have attended GCC's single ministries who have been critical of them, but when their criticisms are evaluated, they flow from some personality conflict with other folks in the group, or the fact the leadership confronted the individual about specific maturity issues, or the person came into the group with a certain level of expectation as to what to find and when those expectations were met with disappointment the person tries to find some fault with everyone in the fellowship group and the church in general. I have seen this time and again.

So, in my mind, for this person to have any credibility as a critic accusing the ministries in question of operating with PDL philosophy, he would have had to have been actively involved with them for more than four months. If you think about it, four months is just 16 Sundays if the person came regularly and 16 Bible study times if the person attended those regularly. That is hardly enough time for him to draw such radical conclusions unless of course the person came to the ministry with these presuppositions in mind.


*He told me that these ministries are run differently from J Macarthur's teaching. He told me that they are both extremely seeker friendly ministries and he told me that most in attendance there are not Christians. He told me that relationships are always discussed and emphasized in these ministries*.


(Fred) How exactly are they ran "differently" from MacArthur's teaching? We do make a distinction between fellowship groups and the main service; a fact many of Grace's critics such as yourself tend to overlook. A Sunday school class dynamic is totally different than the overall dynamic of the main Church.

At any rate, all the men I have spoken with at length about your charges affirm that the Sunday morning portion is spent in music, fellowship, and then the preaching or teaching from the word. This is exactly how I remember Working Disciples, the former single's ministry these other two replaced when all the singles got married to each other. What should we do differently? I would expect more activities because singles have the time and desire to involve themselves in many activities. I did when I was single. There is nothing wrong with having a lot of activities.

Additionally, how is having a large group of non-Christians in attendance being automatically "seeker friendly?" Grace has had a 35 plus year average of having a large group of unbelievers attending our Church. It would only be a problem if the ministry sought to water down or ignore biblical teaching in order to accommodate the unbelievers so as to keep them comfortable. This is not going on with either one of these ministries. Furthermore, why exactly is it wrong or suspicious to discuss and emphasize relationships? Again, this is only a problem if that emphasis replaces the authority and teaching of God's Word. This is not happening in either one of these ministries. The singles ministry I was involved with frequently emphasized relationships with others outside the Church and discussed relationships with each other in the immediate group from a biblical perspective. In fact, this is something common in single ministries simply because the main thought of singles is being married. There is nothing sinful about that, especially if the fellowship group is providing an opportunity for godly singles to potentially marry each other and is teaching the biblical perspective on these issues. You mistakenly assume it equates something bad, but it does not.

*He told me that he didn't understand why this was so (I Do). He told me that he was so troubled by what he saw happening at the Guild that he attempted to speak with the pastor. He said that he avoided him for a long time and then finally when it came time to discuss a meeting time, the pastor refused to meet with him because this man insisted on having a witness present so the pastor would be held accountable. He refused to speak with him with a witness present! This man is highly credible. He also told me that the Foundry is worse that the Guild (which I already could tell). This man knows that these are not Christian ministries.*

(Fred) I cannot speak for this pastor, but knowing him like I do, I doubt the credibility and accuracy of this testimony. Again, you automatically assume the worse because you are attempting to uncover bug-a-bears and want him to be a bad guy. I personally would like to hear from this pastor about this specifically named person, as well as get the person to tell me exactly what he or she did in order to speak with him. At this point, this accusation is speculative and falsely accuses a personal friend's character that I know is not who he is.

Let me break this point up into a handful of comments:


*The foremost Christian authority in the country regarding the church growth movement (CGM) is Dr. Robert Klenck MD. Dr. Klenck knows that the CGM/purpose driven church is at the Guild and Foundry. He knows from viewing their web pages*. [Editor's note: Bob often appeals to Klenck as one of the "foremost Christian authorities" even though he evaluates church growth ministry according to his bizarre presuppositions regarding conspiracy theories and is virtually unknown to anyone else who has actually written on the subject].

(Fred) The foremost Christian authority in the country? Really? Seeing that I have never heard of him except through your paper, and a host of other folks I know who study church growth stuff also have never heard of him, I believe that claim is a tad exaggerated. I further find it amazing he can draw such a conclusion about the ministries of Grace by "viewing their web pages." This is being presumptuous and such an attitude can be foolish and sinful. Once again, Klenck has a unique definition of church growth he attempts to tie to his so-called expertise in Marxism and Hegel's philosophy. The use of words he believes is suspicious does not immediately equate his accusations. We don't define church growth and seeker sensitive philosophy according to his themes, nor should we.

I mentioned Klenck to a variety of elders and teachers at Grace and his charges about the Marxist-Hegel elements and they all shrug their shoulders and dismiss the guy as hunting windmills. In order for Klenck to be correct about Grace, he would have to demonstrate that we are specifically using the church growth philosophy he defines in the negative manner he accuses the leadership. He would also have to demonstrate where he has actually seen a specific instance of its negative effects upon the church and document it. Has he? All he has done is accuse the two ministries of falling into his self defined patterns of church growth, a philosophy apparently hard to define according to you.


*Other Christians know besides for me. Would you like to hear what he says about this? Please do. Go to www.johnecoleman.org and click on Ram Radio Stream. Scroll down about halfway to Ram Radio Live 1-21-06. Listen to the first hour of this 2 hour broadcast. Dr. Klenck will say that the CGM agenda is going at GCC at full swing. Do you think that he doesn't know what he's talking about?*

(Fred) I did listen to the link and all I can say is that I am stunned of the horrible misinformation John and his friend are passing along. I am disappointed that someone like Coleman would be so easily sucked into believing it. I am troubled by this and truly wonder if he has any real discernment. I take it that you are the "Bob" feeding them the poor information about GCC? A couple of things struck me from their comments.

First is their berating the email to you from "George" who refused to meet with you after another certain pastor told him not to do so. Apparently, you, Coleman and Klenck see that as thought control or hiding the truth or something. We however see this as shepherding our people. Coleman of all people, who is a pastor, should know better than to bad mouth what happened. I don't know who George is, but it is the duty of any pastor of Grace to protect him from being led astray. I am sorry if it offends you that we think of you as a wolf, but your material and protest behavior out in front of our church place you in that category. It is a biblical mandate to protect those who are immature and unstable from false teaching. For you guys to see that as negative demonstrates to me a woeful misconduct with the souls of the saints. I would expect Coleman to protect his members from some Fred Price wanna be who wished to meet alone with them. It is his calling as a pastor.

Second, Coleman suggests that John MacArthur is out of touch and unaware of what is happening in these ministries and he seems to think it is his duty to inform John of what is going on. I can assure you that John is actively involved with all the ministries at Grace in spite of our Church's large size. He meets with the staff weekly when he can, as well as monthly with the elders, one or two who are members of those two ministries in question. To assume John's ministry is so big that it is near impossible for him to know what is really happening under his nose is another example of presumption.

*Mohler is a fellow of a UN-NGO. He's a fellow of the ERLC. The ERLC is a UN-NGO. Pastors, leaders and staff workers at GCC denied these facts for one year. Why? Why did they lie?* [Editor's note: Bob has a fixation with Al Mohler, Jr. and even claims that Al's loose affiliation with a non-governmental organization in the U.N. makes him really a satanic agent who's duty it is to water down the Christian church as a whole with his teaching]

(Fred) Are you sure they lied that the Faith and Family group was part of the U.N.'s non-governmental organization list, or that they denied your charges of one world conspiracies? I have never denied that the ERLC was listed under the UN's NGOs. I have stated that there is nothing sinister about such an affiliation. I am guessing you are from an independent fundamentalist background and adhere to rigid (unbiblical) secondary separation principles? Also, Al is a fellow, which means he is on a board of directors or has some other loose affiliations with the group. Moreover, several other prominent men are fellows like Paige Patterson and the late Carl Henry. Are they guilty by association like Al is?

*Mohler is dedicated to fulfilling the principles of the UN charter. This goes without saying and it naturally follows. Also, I was told this by his associate. Anyone denying this denies reality. If you think that a man can serve 2 masters, then you deny scripture*

(Fred) If the principles of the UN charter are as benign as they are listed on their website, http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/index.html I would agree with them. I think because you operate from this 70s, one world government eschatology in the vein of Hal Lindsey, you start with a goofy presupposition that the UN is going to bring in some one world government ready for the anti-Christ. I judge the UN as being incompetent and too given over to corruption to accomplish such a grand scheme. If Al Mohler believes he can exploit the UN charter to advance the gospel in the world, I say we let him try. As for the serving 2 masters thing, why can't Al Mohler cooperate with the UN and be a Christian? What exactly does it mean to "serve two masters" in your mind? How are you defining that? Am I serving two masters if I agree to uphold the employee agreement at say, Wal-Mart or Target, and still be a Christian? I believe you are misapplying Jesus's words.

*As I stated in my letter, the CGM is not easily understood. The leaders at GCC can't recognize it. Also, do you think that those bringing this agenda into Grace would admit it to you? They know that you cannot discern what is going on* [Editor's note: Notice how on one hand with Bob's arguments outlined above, the Church Growth Movement (CGM) is easily recognizable by him, Klenck, and Coleman as having infiltrated Grace Church. It's noticeable on our websites and is visibly taking place in our singles ministries. Anyone who would take the time to examine their claims would see it so plainly. Yet , on the other hand, here we have Bob claiming the CGM is not "easily understood" except by some supposed expert like himself and Klenck. In a manner of speaking, Bob's teaching smacks of gnosticism, or the idea that only a few "anointed" individuals know the truth and their message must be heeded].

(Fred) Then basically, if you believe this Bob, you are charging the elders and pastors of Grace with intentionally lying to and willfully deceiving its members. In a nutshell, you are charging our pastoral staff as being unbelievers. Is that your position, Bob? Out of all of those godly men who are leading Grace, none of them have the ability to discern what you can discern and those who can are lying about it and trying to hide it? Is that what you are saying?

*Since I handed out my letter, as I count it, 19 pages have been taken off their website. These are the pages that contained the purpose driven phrases and revealed the purpose driven agenda that I quoted from in my letter. Why were these pages taken off? Obviously because they want to hide the PD language and agenda written on these pages. Now when someone reads my letter, it can't be verified from the website. If the 19 pages were all Biblical, then why take them off?* [Editor's note: Bob, Klenck, and Coleman all assert that Grace church is trying to hide the evidence they bring against the church leadership by removing the alleged "evidence" from websites, or letting pastor go, or shutting up members by threats and the like. Coleman has even gone as far as claiming an overt racism on the part of Grace's elders because he, being a black man, is "smeared" as being "nuts" by the white elders of the church. He also argues other motivations of wanting to shut him up about the "truth" such as protecting the money source from rich donors]

(Fred) I can't speak to that directly. I will ask around and see what folks say. However, I know the website updates regularly and old stuff gets removed and replaced by new stuff. But, to suggest that the staff of these ministries are intentionally hiding things is again charging them with lying and being dishonest and thus accusing them of being ungodly and unbelievers.

*I know of a church in the LA area that is becoming purpose driven. They have spiritual gift assessments, diverse small group ministry, leadership seminars for accountability and purposes of "relationship building". A man in their office told me that they couldn't be PD because the "vast majority of their staff and pastors come from the Masters College and Seminary*

(Fred) Do you care to tell me the name of this Church so I can contact them about your accusations? Who was this man in the office? Again Bob, you have yet to establish, as has Klenck and Coleman, that diverse small groups and leadership seminars for accountability and relationship building are inherently evil and unbiblical. Just because Marx or Hegel or any other crackpot in the past utilized these things for their purposes does not equate to us using these things in the same manner. Methodology is not in itself evil, but those who utilize it for such purposes. Here is our main disconnect: Where you see evil behind small groups, we see a good thing that has been beneficial for the spiritual health of our Church. When you continually insist, despite our protests to the contrary, that this is what we are doing, you are headed into the realms of paranoia.

*Did you know that GCC officials called the police on me the second week I was there giving out my letter? I did nothing wrong. The GCC officials lied to the police. Why?*

(Fred) I spoke with one of our key security men, the man who told the police about your presence on the sidewalk, and he told me that you certainly did nothing wrong. He never accused you of wrong doing at all. In fact, he had no problem with you handing out your paper on the sidewalk. The patrol unit was already at GCC because they routinely drive through our parking lots to help deter thieves which we have had problems with in the past. The security guy simply stopped the car, told the officer you were there and asked him to stop by and make sure you knew what your rights were and were not. That is all. Unless you come on to our property, you have every right to protest out in front of your Church. Of course, we also reserve the right to dismiss you as a crank and heckle you if it is deemed necessary.

*It sounds to me that you are naive. This agenda can only be at GCC because Christians like you lack knowledge and discernment*.

(Fred) Just a closing thought. Ok, lets suppose I am naive and lack knowledge and discernment, what is the end goal of this "agenda" as you call it? If church growth has truly infiltrated Grace, how will it manifest itself in the open beyond just the use of trendy buzz words and small groups meeting together without the Bibles opened? Could you elaborate on that for me? [Editor's note: This is the one key question neither Bob, nor Klenck, nor Coleman have ever answered. They refuse to interact with me or anyone else who has attempted to correct them of their slanderous misinformation]

Thanks

Fred


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26 Comments:

Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

Thanks for the follow-up post, Fred. As a member of one of The Ministries That Shall Not Be Named since its inception in October 2003, I read "A Wake Up Call To The Saints At Grace Community Church" with interest. As you similarly noted, I do not speak in any official capacity for Grace Community Church. However, I do have a few observations:

1) The arguments made by the author of the "A Wake Up Call..." are not biblical.

Asserting that 1 Timothy 6:20 is a verse about the Hegelian Dialectic is a prime example. 1 Timothy 6:20 is Paul's exhortation to Timothy to guard the truth against false teachers--the sort Paul describes further in 2 Timothy chapter 3.

To assert that this passage is about the Hegelian Dialectic, a philosophy formulated by a German philosopher born in the eighteenth century is ludicrous on its face.

Sure, the author of "A Wake Up Call..." sprinkles some verses of scripture here and there, but does not base his arguments upon them. And when he does try to expound, he gets it wrong. Instead, he turns God’s Word into some kind of cosmological condiment, sprinkled here and there, in an effort to spice things up.

2) Characterizing TQM as a methodology of Marxists is absurd.

My last job was Quality Engineer for a respected Aerospace company. I can assure you and anyone reading this that there was no Marxist element in TQM or any permutation of the "continuous improvement" efforts at my current or former employers. Yes, there was a “rah rah, come on gang” element to it, but the rolling eyes of the workers exposed to the pep talk would convince any observer that no one took any “philosophical” aspects of TQM seriously.

Moreover, TQM is a Quality Assurance methodology used by Capitalists in order to reduce waste, increase quality, and maximize profits. The idea that a Capitalist program that reduces waste, increases quality, and maximizes profits is a Marxist philosophy must have Karl Marx spinning in his grave at 50,000 RPM.

As an aside, I wonder if the author of “A Wake Up Call…” has ever taken a look at the condition of any national economy run by Marxists? What is the example of the success of this “Marxist” TQM? Russia? North Korea? When people start referring to the pastors of The Ministries That Shall Not Be Named as “Dear Leader,” call me.

The author asserts, “God’s unchanging truth does not fit TQM.”And what then should we think of these?

Philippians 1:9: “And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;”

1 Thessalonians 4:1: “Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.”

1 Thessalonians 4:10: “And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;”

Anyone familiar with the grammatical present tense knows that Paul is exhorting the Philippians to “abound” and “increase,” and that “more and more,” present tense, continuously.

So would the author of “A Wake Up Call…” assert that Paul, or better, the Holy Spirit that inspired Paul’s words, is Hegelian, TQM-pushing, and Purpose-Driven? Or that these verses are not “fit” by his standards?

3) The author of “A Wake Up Call…” asserts that the motto, “Catch the Vision” is “a New Age term.”

How about this?

Proverbs 29:18: “Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.”

So having a “vision” for a ministry is New Age, when the Scriptures make plain the people perish without one?

Having read that entire ten-page train wreck of misguided fecklessness, I have not caught the author’s vision. This, lastly, explains the author's problem to me, from Fred's earlier post:

Where do you attend Church, Bob?

Bob: To be honest, I haven't found a good congregation to worship with.

This man needs to find a local, doctrinally sound church in which to grow and be accountable to godly men that teach the Scriptures faithfully.

Hebrews 10:25: “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.” [emphasis mine]

Which is more likely: 1) John MacArthur, all the elders and pastors of Grace Community Church, and about nine thousand members are all in the dark and deceived in this matter, or 2) a man that, by his own admission is out of fellowship, is heralding the truth?

9:35 PM, July 24, 2006  
Blogger Hayden said...

Good work Fred! Great followup post. I hope Rob/Bob "opens his mind" to the truth found in your biblical response.

Impacted wisdom,

Great followup too.

6:53 AM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

It looks to me that Bob is correct in what he says.

3:00 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

I have looked into these matters and I have a few comments to make.

Fred, you say in the original post that Bob has a "Goofy presupposition that the UN is going to bring in some 1-world government ready for antichrist." This is exactly the goal of the UN. Why do you think it is called the United Nations? Satan is the power behind the UN and he is most definitely using the UN as a vehicle to bring in the 1 world gov't under antichrist. Also, the Un itself is the result of demonic influences in the lives of those who founded it. I thought that all Christians knew this.
Then you go on to say "If Al Mohler believes he can exploit the UN charter to advance the gospel, I say we let him try." Fred, this is a statement of a naive and ignorant mind. No one, including Al Mohler, can exploit the UN. No organization can become a UN/NGO unless they toe the line for the UN. And no one can be a fellow of a UN/NGO who is dedicated to Christ. Organizations are tried and tested for years before an NGO status is granted. This is similar to the trying and testing of a man before he is "made" in the mafia. A capo in a crime family is not "exploiting" the mafia and a fellow of a UN/NGO is not exploiting the UN. They are both toeing the line for their masters.
Then you ask, "Why can't he cooperate with the UN and be a Christian?" The reason Mohler can't cooperate with the UN and be a Christian is because the UN is a Satanic org. whose purpose is to destroy the church; and they are destroying the church. A fellow of a UN/NGO can't serve the UN (Satan) and Christ. It's impossible. One can't serve Christ and Baal.

Let me make a few more comments.
Impacted wisdom says "To assert that the passage is about the dialectic formulated by a German philosopher in the 18C is ludicrous on its face." So you believe the dialectic process is only 200 years old? You don't believe that it existed at the time of Paul? The Greeks at the time of Paul knew all about dialectic thought (that's why Paul warned Timothy about it) and in fact, dialectic thought goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden; Eve was guilty of this type of thought (facilitated by Satan).

Impacted Wisdom then says "I can assure you and anyone reading this there is no Marxist element in TQM." That is a false statement if there ever was one and it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. One has to only google TQM and Marxism or TQM and dialectic to see hundreds of sites that will say that the basis of TQM is Marxism. This is well known. In just 10 minutes, I have found and read this in a half dozen places. You want to assure the reader that there is no Marxist element in TQM. Don't bet on that because that is very easily proven.

Also, "catch the Vision" is most definitely a new age term. Just google it and you will see this. This is very well known. It implies "Vision Casting" which is not only part of the new age, but is part of the church growth movement. Just study the church growth movement and you'll see that the pastor must "cast his vision" to his congregation.

Both of you guys are in need of further education.

4:05 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

I have googled tqm and marxism and I will copy the following which shows that impacted wisdom doesn't know what he is talking about when he says that there is no Marxist element in TQM. Notice that it says that TQM was built on a Marxist foundation.
----------------------------------
The Marxist Trojan Horse: Total Quality Management (TQM)

TQM is an organizational transformation strategy that uses:

Group Dynamics

Facilitator/Change Agents (“Strategic Planning” occurs in councils)

“Problem Solving”

Systems Management (ISO 9000)

Decoding the term “Total Quality Management” is impossible without an understanding of the Marxist foundation upon which it was built. I use the word “decoding” because so many of the dialectic concepts are masked by nice sounding double-talk.

TOTAL = Holistic, Gestalt, Global

QUALITY[5] = People. (Also slang, short for TQM systems in general, e.g. “We have a Quality organization”).

MANAGEMENT = The facilitators, the agents of change.

5:12 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

Here's more proof from the internet that impacted wisdom is wrong when he assures us that there is no marxist element in TQM
--------------------------------
Diaprax is the dialectic imagination of transformational Marxists. I cannot separate transformational Marxism and transformational OBE, TQM, and STW. They are all diaprax based.

5:17 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

Here's another statement from the internet which contradicts impacted wisdom.
----------------------------------
@@Marxism


TQM is "transformational" marxism. The old Soviet Union and China
were "traditional marxism" where they put a gun to your head if you
don't agree. Some people moved here from East Europe who evolved it
to "transformational". Now they facilitate you to a consensus, either
way a centralized authority gets its way in implementing radical
change. It's marxism with a smiling nonconfrontational face. If you
disagree, you are verbally agressive, confrontational and disruptive.

5:24 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

Give it up, Pilgrim. You have not answered a single argument I have made. My first point was that the arguments made by Bob are not biblical. In your five posts (as of the time I am typing this), you do not even mention nor bother to cite a single verse of scripture to support your position--let alone expound on any Scripture.

Citing obtuse snippets from Google searches as a basis for argument is just plain sad. And you don't even bother to provide a link to the websites you are citing. Is someone just supposed to believe you because you say you Googled and found these things?

Why don't you use God's Word to make your point, or is Google and these websites you cite God's Word to you?

Ironically, Bob criticizes the two ministries at GCC because he says he did not see open Bibles during the discussion. Try opening your Bible, citing a verse, and explaining the verse. That is how a Christian forms the basis for his or her thinking, not by Google searches of paranoid conspiracy theories.

5:44 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

The following not only shows impacted wisdom is wrong about marxism, but it also shows that in TQM, the "vision" must be followed. It sure looks to me like The Guild ministry is being conformed to TQM and Tom Patton's "vision" is an integral part of that. Do you see that the communist goals of "transformation" and change are based on a "vision" that must be maintained with a zeal that requires "evangelizing?". Note that this author is not talking about the church--but do you see that this model can easily be applied to a ministry like the Guild or the Foundry? Do you see how this "business model" can infiltrate an apostate ministry and deceive those within the ministry? These types of ministries are conforming their congregations to a Marxist business model that is cloaked in Christian terminology. The Guild and Foundry are both being conformed to this model.
-----------------------------------
TQM calls for "cultural transformation". However, as gradual or selective implementation is not allowed, an impression soon permeates the organization that only total devotion to the cause can rescue the subscribing company from ruin. Like a socialist cult, all the decisions in TQM are related to the "vision." Individuals are not praised for their accomplishments; all credit for positive results is attributed to the "movement". As managers become further conditioned, tangible results become less important than performing the proper TQM techniques. Occasional evangelism by TQM experts is used to maintain an ideological zeal.

Perhaps the most notable similarity between Total Quality Management and communism is that at least on the surface, both appear to be arguably positive philosophies, espousing very similar principles. TQM claims to empower the workforce, communism seeks to bring the workforce to power. However, it is these similarities that ultimately will doom Total Quality Management to failure. For just as capitalism illuminated the economic impracticality of communism, so will the free market invalidate the principles of TQM.

5:46 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger the Pilgrim said...

Impacted Wisdom, you are not very bright and I plan to dust off my shoes. IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT TQM IS BASED ON MARXISM! YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO TAKE THE POISONED PILL RATHER THAN DO RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF.

5:52 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

"Impacted Wisdom, you are not very bright and I plan to dust off my shoes. IT IS A WELL KNOWN FACT THAT TQM IS BASED ON MARXISM! YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO TAKE THE POISONED PILL RATHER THAN DO RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF."

Why do you insult me? This is why:

"He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself." --Proverbs 9:7

I fear for your soul, Pilgrim. Did you know that you are a sinner? The Bible says in Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

6:20 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger Hank T said...

To Impacted Wisdom Truth,

The Pilgrim proved you wrong. There is obviously a Marxist element to TQM. All those internet sites aren't lying. You just can't admit you are wrong. This shows me that you don't have a real desire to know truth. Defending your position that there is no Marxist element to TQM in light of all the evidence to the contrary shows that you are indeed not too bright as the Pilgrim said.
Just as the Pilgrim is a sinner, so you are for denying truth that is clearly shown.
Maybe you should consider removing your "impacted wisdom truth" and replacing it with a "love for truth."

11:36 PM, July 25, 2006  
Blogger surfer boy said...

Hey Impacted Wisdom Truth---you are the one that is insulting!! Pilgrim proved that there is more than an "element" of marxism in tqm and you respond with insults by your paranoid conspiracy theory remark. Pilgrim showed that tqm is marxist based and you insult him by stating that he is a conspiracy theorist.
I can tell you that tqm has infiltrated every area of American life--it's just called by different names. It's only called tqm in businesss. It's called COPS in policing, OBE in education, HMO in medicine, STW in politics and PDC in the church. They are ALL the same model and they are all tqm and they ALL have their basis in marxism. Are you going to now insult me by calling me a conspiracy theorist. It is Satan and his minions who are behind this conspiracy.

12:03 AM, July 26, 2006  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Guys,

I do not think IWT is implying there are no Marxist elements in the TQM philosophy. He may have over stated his comments a tad. Marxists want good, loyal workers just like capitalists, and in fact, TQM work more in tandem with captialism than ever they would with Marxist societies.

The point made by IWT that resignates with me is that TQM techniques go across all types of cultures and settings. Japan and Korea are two of the leading societies to promote these techniques in their factories. The difference with them, however, is the desire to have everyone conforming to the Japanese or Korean societal standards; it is not necessarily to make better cars or more money.

When I worked for Wal-Mart in 92, they were committed to teaching TQM techiniques to the "associates." We had to meet together as a staff in the morning before the store opened. We did warm up excercises, the Wal-mart cheer and the whole "catch the vision" for Wal-mart bit. The problem is that no one felt anymore committed to the Wal-mart vision as they did the day before and no one took that vision home with them when he or she punched out in the afternoon, so no one's brains were washed, so to speak.

My contention with Bob, Klenck and even you Pilgrim, is the insistence that TQM techniques being evil or nefarious in and of themselves and are some how detrimental to the church as a whole.

There is nothing inherently wrong with encouraging people to "catch a vision" for the stated purpose of the local Church. I personally would like more people to catch a vision for the doctrines of Calvinism, biblical creationism and the authority of God's word. I want there to be a group dynamic of unity with the people at my Church, this is a biblical mandate. I want there to be facilitated change with the people at my Church who are growing in their sanctification, walking closer to Christ, and shunning personal sin. That is what being transformed to the image of God is all about.

Then finally, I think Klenck's and Gotcher's insistence that TQM and Marxist-Hegelian philosophy is the driving foundational force behind the whole seeker sensitive movement is completely ridiculous. Of all the critics of seeker sensitive churches and their compromises of God's word, none of them ever appeal to TQM or the Hegelian praxis-dialectic as the motivating factor. This alone is telling. This does not mean these mainstream critics are "missing it" or blind to the truth as Klenck and Bob wish to claim. They just recognize such philolosphies are third or fourth tier, surface level problems from a much larger problem that has its root in denying the authority and sufficiency of God's Word, used by the Holy Spirit and administered by sound preaching and teaching to positively impact sinners for the gospel. That is the problem with seeker sensitive churches, not the imbibing of TQM techiques.

Fred

6:34 AM, July 26, 2006  
Blogger Hayden said...

Some wisdom from the apostle Paul:

1 Tim 3:3-5 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

and also...

1 Tim. 6:20-21 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge "--
21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

Fred & Impacted Wisdom, I believe that the men you are speaking with are professing a false "knowledge" (and I'm sure you guys know that) and are more interested in winning a fight.

Pilgrim (and others),Ask yourself, "Am I as passionate about the Gospel as I am about this debate?"

If you believe that the not mentioned pastors do not care about reaching singles for Christ then you should approach them calmly and with an appointment. (I know them both and would disagree with that assesment)

I do not care for ANY of the "purpose Driven" stuff, as a matter of fact am preaching on how it has destroyed evangelism in many churches this weekend in the church I serve as a pastor at. So, if you think I have a "stake" in this debate you are wrong. I am just concerned about Robert and his lack of being accountable to a local church which is a command in Hebrews 10:25.

7:22 AM, July 26, 2006  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Pilgrim,
Just a handful of comments to one of your comments up above.

Fred, you say in the original post that Bob has a "Goofy presupposition that the UN is going to bring in some 1-world government ready for antichrist." This is exactly the goal of the UN. Why do you think it is called the United Nations? Satan is the power behind the UN and he is most definitely using the UN as a vehicle to bring in the 1 world gov't under antichrist. Also, the Un itself is the result of demonic influences in the lives of those who founded it. I thought that all Christians knew this.

(Fred) I stated in my email to Bob that I believe the UN is utterly incompotent and so morally corrupt that they would have no ability to formulate a one world government if they so truly desired. I believe this even more since their complaints against Israel the last week or so.

Additionally, I do not hold to the Hal Lindsey like scenerio of the end times where there is a one world government under the UN with an Antichrist figure in charge. This is a fanciful notion of eschatologial sensationists who published their materials back in the 70s and early 80s. There is nothing in the book of Revelation that teaches we must believe in such a scenerio with the UN. A one world like government could exist apart from the UN. Besides, as I have always challenged eschatological sensationalists who hold to UN = a one world government under an antichrist, would not a scenerio coming to pass just hurry up the coming of Christ and the rapture?

Then you go on to say "If Al Mohler believes he can exploit the UN charter to advance the gospel, I say we let him try." Fred, this is a statement of a naive and ignorant mind. No one, including Al Mohler, can exploit the UN. No organization can become a UN/NGO unless they toe the line for the UN. And no one can be a fellow of a UN/NGO who is dedicated to Christ.

(Fred) The thought of Al Mohler exploiting the UN charter is my thinking, not Al's. However, as to your last sentence, "And no one can be a fellow of a UN/NGO who is dedicated to Christ." Why? Unless of course you are presupposing that the UN is pure satanic evil (the very thing you claim). There is nothing to suggest that it is anything more than a bunch of sinful men attempting to bring about peace through human means.

The reason Mohler can't cooperate with the UN and be a Christian is because the UN is a Satanic org. whose purpose is to destroy the church; and they are destroying the church. A fellow of a UN/NGO can't serve the UN (Satan) and Christ. It's impossible. One can't serve Christ and Baal.

(Fred) Then this is our point of disconnect: I don't think the UN is any more satanic than the Toyota corporation, or Congress, or the British Parliment. Is it filled from top to bottom with self-serving sinners? Why yes, yes it is... just like any other worldly organization. Does that make it a satanically inspired organization? Not in my book, it is just a bunch of sinners.

2:16 PM, July 26, 2006  
Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

Thanks, Fred, and well said.

My experience with TQM was a form called CPI, for "Continuous Process Improvement." The entire program was motivated by management's desire to maximize profits by reducing loss. Marxism and Capitalism are anathema to one another, and to suggest that Capitalists are attempting to maximize their profits by inculcating Marxist principles is hilarious; that is why the notion that TQM is a Marxist philosophy is so ludicrous to me.

Just because a Marxist might use a term and TQM uses it does not mean that TQM is Marxist. The arguments I have read from those that believe that TQM is Marxist are the usual Fundamentalist notions of guilt by association.

For example, I know of another group that uses TQM.

This group of highly paid and skilled workers is formed for the pursuit of a common goal. When the group meets, the facilitator uses certain buzz words to communicate a plan to the group, and after a discussion, the group pledges to carry out the facilitator's plan. There is consensus. Then the group goes back to their proscribed places of work in order to achieve that goal. That group is called...

A Football Team.

Virtually anything can be demonized if one uses "ominous" terminology to describe it.

The heart of the TQM/Marxist error is a form of the logical fallacy known as "the undistributed middle." For example, this fallacy has the following syllogistic form:

* All dogs have ears.
* All monkeys have ears.
* Therefore, all dogs are monkeys.

Or, in the case of the TQM/Marxist folks,

* A Grace ministry exhorts their members to "catch the vision."
* "Vision casting" is a New Age term developed by Transformational Marxists.
* Therefore that Grace ministry is based on Marxist principles.

All manner of things can be misdiagnosed, misinterpreted, and misunderstood because of that fallacy.

4:08 PM, July 26, 2006  
Blogger Bob said...

I will reply to Fred.

(Fred) I stated in my email to Bob that I believe the UN is utterly incompotent and so morally corrupt that they would have no ability to formulate a one world government if they so truly desired. I believe this even more since their complaints against Israel the last week or so.

(Bob)The UN is a front, the true power lies behind it and controls it.

Additionally, I do not hold to the Hal Lindsey like scenerio of the end times where there is a one world government under the UN with an Antichrist figure in charge. This is a fanciful notion of eschatologial sensationists who published their materials back in the 70s and early 80s. There is nothing in the book of Revelation that teaches we must believe in such a scenerio with the UN. A one world like government could exist apart from the UN. Besides, as I have always challenged eschatological sensationalists who hold to UN = a one world government under an antichrist, would not a scenerio coming to pass just hurry up the coming of Christ and the rapture?

(Bob) There is a world government now. It is covert. This scenario you speak of will not hurry up the coming of Christ and the rapture because the antichrist can't come to power before the church is raptured. The timing of the rapture is up to God.

(Fred) The thought of Al Mohler exploiting the UN charter is my thinking, not Al's. However, as to your last sentence, "And no one can be a fellow of a UN/NGO who is dedicated to Christ." Why? Unless of course you are presupposing that the UN is pure satanic evil (the very thing you claim). There is nothing to suggest that it is anything more than a bunch of sinful men attempting to bring about peace through human means.

(Bob)World Peace means 1-world gov't and there is a ton of info that proves the UN is pure Satanic evil. Here's some evidence. In the 1920's Alice Bailey, a Satanist, founded Lucifer Trust. Later the name was changed to Lucis Trust. Lucis Trust is the official publisher for the UN. In "Discipleship in the New Age",(Lucis Press,1955), Alice Bailey stated regarding the efforts of the UN to formulate a World Plan "that 3 occult factors have governed the development of all these plans."(Vol 2,p.35) To this end, Lucis Trust started World Goodwill a UN/NGO that now has "special consultative status" with the UN. World Goodwill's aim is to "cooperate in the world of preparation for the reappearance of the Christ." Lucis Trust's purpose is to establish a 1 world gov't under "Sanat Kumara" (Satan).
The trustees of the Lucis Trust are powerful international elitists.


(Fred) Then this is our point of disconnect: I don't think the UN is any more satanic than the Toyota corporation, or Congress, or the British Parliment. Is it filled from top to bottom with self-serving sinners?

(Bob) No, it is controlled at the top by those who serve Satan and it is filled with those dedicated to Satan's agenda.

Why yes, yes it is... just like any other worldly organization. Does that make it a satanically inspired organization? Not in my book, it is just a bunch of sinners.

(Bob)You need to throw your book away.

2:16 PM

4:01 AM, July 27, 2006  
Blogger bob said...

Fred, I hope some of the questions you ask in this post have been answered in the "Transformation of Grace Church" article.

I have read your previous posts and I want to say that you are wrong to label others that know the truth about Grace Church as "sychophants."

But the truth is known by only a few. The vast majority will remain blinded.

2:04 AM, March 28, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Bob,

Actually, you really haven't dealt with any of my questions.

All I saw in that post was your repeated assertions about Grace that have been debunked by myself and a number of other folks who have come in contact with you here during the SC and members of Grace.

Honestly, I am concerned by your spiritual health. You have allowed your mind to be filled with conspiratorial nonsense rather than the Word of God. What you think is the "Word of God" is in fact fearful speculations about reality that are certainly not biblcal and definitely not spiritual.

For example, your take on small discussion groups at Grace. Bob, there is nothing wrong with small groups being led by a leader. In fact, this small group dynamic is not new to Grace introduced through the two singles fellowship groups you mention as you suggest. Small groups have been a part of Grace since the fifties.

Also, your idea that "single parent service" days is strange, considering how the scripture tells the body of Christ to minister to one another. Oddly, you present a non-biblical view of fellowship in one paragraph where you state:

Christians are called to love the brethren. We should help each other. But do Christians need to be organized in teams to help a single parent in need? Should single parents depend on a team or on God for their needs? Christians are placed in numerous teams in the CGM so that they will become accustomed to think in a group and to think for the collective. As I have shown, this collective group mind will also maximize demonic influence over the group members.

Does it not occur to you that the means God uses to serve those in need who are depending upon Him to meet their needs are groups of people from a local congregation? Good grief, Bob. Was the church in Acts "thinking for the collective and maximizing demonic influence over the group members" when they broke bread together, met together, and had all things in common so that if there was anyone in need they could be served? How exactly is the group dynamic of those single fellowships at Grace helping single parents any different than the ones presented in Acts?

As I close Bob, I will say you are at least courageous to name yourself and not attack Grace anonymously. My complaint against your supporters, who are certainly sychophantic, is that they choose to remain anonymous and not "play the man" by bringing their concerns to the church as the Bible states they should. Scripture knows of no anonymous sin confronters.

Fred

11:42 AM, March 28, 2009  
Blogger bob said...

"My assertions about Grace have been debunked by you and other members of Grace." Against all evidence to the contrary, the GCC leaders have denied bringing in the church growth movement.

"Conspiratorial nonsense?" The fact that the churches, like GCC, are now helping to build Satan's kingdom on earth through community transformation?

"Nothing wrong with leader-led small groups at GCC." They are dialectic sessions. Your group leaders are playing the role of a facilitator. They are not teaching didactically.

"How is the group dynamic at the Guild different from the Bible." The bible groups weren't diverse. They weren't assigned into teams. They weren't catching man-made visions. They weren't assigned to help a single parent. They weren't lorded over by a "leader/facilitator." They weren't manipulated through dialogue. The bible groups didn't serve man, they served God as individuls. They weren't "group thinkers."

"My supporters are sychophantic." There are many people who have seen the evidence at GCC and know that GCC has been infiltrated. This has nothing to do with me. For instance, Klenck and Coleman both know the Guild and Foundry were PD. Are they my sychophants? Am I responsible if they don't "bring their concerns to your church?"

Furthermore, I originally asked to meet with your churches directors to voice my concerns. I was told by your church rep "that ain't gonna happen." I wrote your church leaders. I tried to meet Macarthur and was told that this wasn't possible. And finally, when I decided to bring my concerns to your congregation, I was threatened by your church leaders. I wouldn't blame Christians if they fear the evil men who lead your church.

9:23 AM, March 29, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Against all evidence to the contrary, the GCC leaders have denied bringing in the church growth movement.

You mean to say YOUR fabricated evidence. You have defined your version of what you think is "church growth" and because you think you saw us practicing your definition after one visit to a fellowship group, you claim you now have all this evidence.

The bible groups weren't diverse.

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" Tell me Bob, how is that not diverse?

Also consider 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Now, when Paul writes of the Corinthians in 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified..." how exactly is that not diverse? How exactly are you defining diverse, anyways?

They weren't assigned into teams.

1 Corinthians 12:12, "For even as the body is one and yet has many members of the body they that are many, are one body so also Christ..." How exactly is working together in teams a violation of this description of Christ's Church? Why is working together in teams a bad thing? You have yet to demonstrate any biblical command against "working in teams." All you have offered is your strange opinion why you don't like it.

They weren't lorded over by a "leader/facilitator." They weren't manipulated through dialogue.

Acts 2:42 "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship..." Were the apostles not leaders/facilitators? Why or why not?

Acts 20:7 ...Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight." I guess in your mind, Paul wasn't dialoging with his listeners?

The bible groups didn't serve man, they served God as individuls. They weren't "group thinkers."

Galatians 5:13 "... through love serve one another." Is this "one another" here human people or God?

here are many people who have seen the evidence at GCC and know that GCC has been infiltrated.

And these people are...? Legitimate, faithful members who have served at Grace for years and are now concerned about what you see?

OR

Fringe individuals who maybe had marginal involvement who are easily led astray by every type of strange doctrine?

I was told by your church rep "that ain't gonna happen." I wrote your church leaders. I tried to meet Macarthur and was told that this wasn't possible. And finally, when I decided to bring my concerns to your congregation, I was threatened by your church leaders. I wouldn't blame Christians if they fear the evil men who lead your church.

So the church leaders are not suppose to protect the people from what they perceive as spiritual threats to the congregation? We are suppose to ignore Paul and Peter's admonitions to guard the flock in your case because you have such a timely message of warning, a message that you virtually hold all by yourself except for a few other undiscerning individuals who have a checkered background like Coleman?

What church did you say you attended now?

Fred

2:38 PM, March 29, 2009  
Blogger bob said...

Fred, You think the evidence for PDC infiltration is fabricated? I am in possession of all the deleted Guild and Foundry webpages which others have seen and determined are from the PDC. Nothing is fabricated.

When I say your small groups are diverse I don't mean they come from different backgrounds, I mean there is a mixture of true and false Christians.

The teams wouldn't be a problem if they all obeyed God. But these teams obey man-made visions. They are bonded through peer pressure and fear of man. Team members develop a dependence on man and team members will compromise God for team purposes.

The bible leaders like Paul weren't facilitators like the leaders of the GCC small groups. Paul taught the Bible didactically to a group that listened and learned. Your church leaders facilitate a dialogue to consensus. This is dialectic teaching. The bible group united around God's word. GCC groups unite around the facilitator's vision and ideas through perer pressure tactics.

The primary agenda of Christianity is not to serve one another, but to serve God. And in any case, there is no reason to be formed into a team.

The people who know GCC has been infiltrated come from both GCC (people who have attended the Guild and Foundry), and people from outside who know the PDC model when they recognize it. It is difficult for outsiders to now know the truth about the Guild and Foundry since their websites have been gutted.

Your church leaders are protecting their church from threats. The threat comes from true Christians exposing the PDC model at GCC and their protection comes in the form of slandering anyone who discerns this infiltration and making sure that anyone with knowledge of this infiltration doesn't have access to the duped congregation. They protect by removing webpages, lying, and by threatening any would-be exposers. It's all about protecting the core.

Many Christians know the truth about GCC. They are able to discern because they are familiar with the PDC model. But the truth doesn't change because of the number of people who know it or don't know it. I believe it is you that are undiscerning.

5:33 PM, March 30, 2009  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Bob,

I appreciate the psycho analysis.
You didn't deal with any of the passages I raised in objection to your claims. Just more speculative opinion based upon what you have fabricated to be "the truth."

It is getting to where I am just repeating myself and answering a fool according to his folly can only go so far.

Before I shut off the comments, I would be curious to know who are these people who were members of the two fellowship groups in question. I would like to get in contact with them. Like I stated above and you just ignored, I don't doubt there are unstable folks who get sucked it your conspiracy worldview, the Bible tells us such people will always be with us.

SO, tell me Bob, are these individuals who were members in good standing at Grace who came to see things as you presented it and left? Who are they, how can I get a hold of them? Or, as is usually the case with these sorts of things, are they people who were on the fringe, from morally checkered backgrounds, who marginally attended Grace, became disgruntled and left?

The lack of significant witnesses does not bode well with you bud.

email is on the profile page.

6:12 PM, March 30, 2009  
Blogger Sylvia said...

Hello .I stumbled upon this site. I am glad to have read the debate between Fred Butler and Bob Johnson. The reason being is, I believe that John Macarthur and GCC are some lone voices for truth in the church today, along with a very small handful of others that I have found thus far. I first came across Bobs article on Discerning The World blog and I was very much put off by it.However, i like to search things out for myself and having read both parts of this debate between you, I am settled in my mind that Bob has an axe to grind which is precisely what i questioned on that above mentioned site. I am not sure if it was posted or not, i haven't checked. I came across a blog by Bob on the mentioned site where he recants the things that he has said, however, the administraror of such site does not accept the truth on the matter. I do love the site, it exposes alot of false doctrine and movements within the church, however i do NOT believe that JM or GCC belong in that net. This rediculous raving by Bob confirms it further. The above mentioned site may have also cut ties with him. ? not sure. Poor Bob, may the Lord help him.

7:56 AM, February 21, 2011  
Blogger Fred Butler said...

Sylvia,
Hopefully you clicked the "special update" link at the beginning of the article. There you will find how I reported on Bob taking down his website and claiming to have been wrong. Regrettably, his material is still out there in the "eternal" world of the internet and folks like you stumble upon it and are left confused.

Also, I have a special tag specifically addressing Bob's claims. see here

8:32 AM, February 21, 2011  

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